Public Safety Committee on March 7th, 2023

[Chief Jessica Lazare]

No.

[Peter Julian, NDP, New Westminster—Burnaby, BC]

That's very good to note. Thank you.

I want to come back to the issue of transporting firearms from your community and the issue of the impacts on peacekeepers as well. Is it your impression that the way firearms legislation is implemented currently, it makes it difficult for law enforcement—in this case, the peacekeepers—to enforce the legislation?

[Chief Jessica Lazare]

Yes and no. It's difficult to explain that we have jurisdiction over our community and that we have exemptions within our community. It is difficult to.... I don't know how to word this, to be honest: It's a yes-or-no answer.

The peacekeepers are community members as well. They are hunters as well. To manage what happens as soon as somebody leaves our territory, leaves Kahnawake or leaves Tioweró:ton, to go to another nation's territory, say, or to another hunting ground as a guest of that nation, it's out of the hands of the peacekeepers.

[Peter Julian, NDP, New Westminster—Burnaby, BC]

Okay.

[Chief Jessica Lazare]

There are challenges, but within the community of Kahnawake, the peacekeepers are understaffed, and they are underfunded in terms of being able to execute what needs to be done.

[Peter Julian, NDP, New Westminster—Burnaby, BC]

Thank you for that.

I'd like to move on to the Grand Chief.

Thank you for being here today. I'd like to ask you the same question around consultation.

Was the Gwich'in Council consulted in any way prior to the legislation coming forward, prior to the amendments coming forward or after the amendments were tabled?

[Grand Chief Ken Kyikavichik]

Before the amendments, no. After, yes: We had one meeting with Minister Mendicino at the end of January.

[Peter Julian, NDP, New Westminster—Burnaby, BC]

Okay, but prior to that, there was no consultation. Thank you for that.

I'd like to ask you the same question in terms of the principles of the bill around the freeze on handguns. Does the Gwich'in Council have a position on that? You've raised some very valuable additional testimony that I'd like to come back to, but on the principle of the bill itself, the handgun freeze, do you have a position?

[Grand Chief Ken Kyikavichik]

Well, we struggle to see why anyone would need handguns in our territory, other than for crime-related purposes.

[Peter Julian, NDP, New Westminster—Burnaby, BC]

Then you'd probably be supportive of the handgun freeze.

[Grand Chief Ken Kyikavichik]

That's correct.

[Peter Julian, NDP, New Westminster—Burnaby, BC]

Thank you.

In your testimony, you pointed to the weaknesses of the amendments. I think that's something we've come to a consensus on as a committee.

You also mentioned the issue of exemptions. Could you give us a sense of what you feel the exemptions should look like, what that would affect? What's your overall approach, or what would the approach of the Gwich'in Tribal Council be in terms of an exemption on this legislation?

[Grand Chief Ken Kyikavichik]

We're of the view that it could be somewhat of a slippery slope. The reason we have provided this testimony is to indicate specifically which models of firearms we want to ensure are not on such a list, such that we don't need an exemption, and that these firearms are not on any list that is restricted by the Government of Canada for those that have been approved or licensed to be able to have them. That's our position.

[Peter Julian, NDP, New Westminster—Burnaby, BC]

Okay.

Mr. Chair, you're going to give me an extension. That's great. I'd be more than pleased, or are you cutting me off?

[The Chair, Liberal, Ron McKinnon]

I was cutting you off, but I was muted. I had all this eloquent stuff in which I thanked you, but I was muted, so you're going to be missing that.

Anyway, thank you, Mr. Julian.

We'll start our second round now, with Mr. Shipley for five minutes, please.

[Taleeb Noormohamed, Liberal, Vancouver Granville, BC]

I'm sorry, Mr. Chair. I have a point of order.

Given the time, are we doing full rounds or are we going to—

[The Chair, Liberal, Ron McKinnon]

I think this will be an abbreviated round. I think we'll have four slots, one for each party.

Go ahead, Mr. Shipley.

[Doug Shipley, Conservative, Barrie—Springwater—Oro-Medonte, ON]

Thank you, Chair, and thank you to the witnesses for being here today.

My first question is for Chief Lazare.

The Minister of Public Safety recently had some meetings with your community. It was reported in the local media on February 24, and there were some quotes from a member of your community, Bobby Patton. I'm not sure if you're familiar with that gentleman. You're nodding your head yes. I'm going to read these because I don't want to misquote him. What he said is really interesting. I'll ask for your comments.

This is what Mr. Patton said:

“It’s not like hunting back in the olden days where (animals) were plentiful, easy to get to,” Patton said. He noted that hunting grounds have shrunk as development has intensified and populations have grown, increasing the need for efficiency in hunting.

“If you want to go out and you want to kill one goose, one shot, one kill, perfect,” he said, invoking those who are hunting for sport. However, he insists that goose hunters targeting the animals for sustenance depend on more aggressive weapons to yield enough meat.

“They all depend on their semi-automatic weapons. One shot, you’re not going to get much from,” he said.

“It’s going to limit the amount of harvest it’s going to bring back to the community, to the people. It’s going to lead to a lot of people probably starving,” said Patton.

Could you elaborate on that? That's quite a comment by Mr. Patton, that people would be starving.

[Chief Jessica Lazare]

A lot of our community members are trying to go back to our original ways, and a lot of our community members do live off of hunting game that they successfully hunt. There's moose meat, deer meat, geese that I know of, that I've tried. The rest I haven't tried. There's beaver. There are so many different game used for sustenance, and a lot of families do rely on that. They prefer not to go to the local IGA. They prefer not to go to the local Metro or local grocery stores. They prefer to hunt and harvest their own game and grow their own produce in their own gardens and greenhouses.

[Doug Shipley, Conservative, Barrie—Springwater—Oro-Medonte, ON]

Thank you for that.

Obviously, it would be quite an impact if it was rescinded and taken back, but if these amendments went through, it would be very tough to think that people could potentially be starving because of this.

It's not my quote, members across. That was Bobby Patton, a member of this community. You can laugh and make all the comments you want, but you can call him if you want.

My second question is for the grand chief.

Grand Chief, you mentioned that you're for the handgun ban. I just want to get some clarification. We had the Fur Institute of Canada in a meeting, and we've heard from other trappers also that trappers, quite often for their own safety, use handguns. Do they not use them up in your area? We're hearing conflicting reports on this.

[Grand Chief Ken Kyikavichik]

No, the use of handguns, especially by those that are trapping, is not common.

[Doug Shipley, Conservative, Barrie—Springwater—Oro-Medonte, ON]

It's not common, but is it used at all?

We had heard that safety issues.... Because they're carrying so much gear—they went to a great depth of detail on it—they needed to have a handgun on them, many times for safety reasons.

You've never heard of that up in your area.

[Grand Chief Ken Kyikavichik]

Being raised by a trapper and uncles who were trappers, and being raised in a traditional camp myself, I have never seen a handgun utilized by our people for that purpose.

[Doug Shipley, Conservative, Barrie—Springwater—Oro-Medonte, ON]

Thank you for that.

I'd like to go back to Ms. Lazare.

In December, the Assembly of First Nations unanimously passed a resolution to publicly oppose Bill C-21 on the basis that amendments introduced by the government could potentially criminalize long guns or rifles used by first nation peoples in exercising their aboriginal treaty rights to sustenance hunt and harvest.

Do you share these concerns?

[Chief Jessica Lazare]

Absolutely.