Public Safety Committee on March 7th, 2023

[Raquel Dancho, Conservative, Kildonan—St. Paul, MB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair, and thank you to both witnesses for being with us today. We greatly appreciate your testimony. On this panel we have a sport shooting perspective and a hunting perspective. It's very good to hear from both of you.

Ms. Kiejko, I have a few questions for you concerning your experience.

We know, of course, the Liberals have brought forward successive gun bans. It began with C-71. Then there was the May 2020 OIC, which added hundreds of models. We then saw the so-called handgun freeze, which we know is a long-term ban. The latest ban is certainly one of the largest hunting rifle bans in Canadian history, and now we're talking about that since it has been withdrawn.

What I hear from sport shooters and hunters is that they feel they are being punished and attacked. As an Olympian who's represented Canada as a sport shooter on two occasions, and as someone from a family of Olympic sport shooters, I'm wondering if you could share your experience on the impact these successive bans have had on you.

[Lynda Kiejko]

I would say there's definitely a direct impact on competitive shooters specifically. I didn't used to have to do a whole stack of extra export and import paperwork to be able to leave and come back to the country with my own firearms, which are registered within this country and have already been imported. I now pay to import them every time I come back home from a competition.

One of my teammates is trying to look into avenues to acquire a new competition firearm and is facing significant challenges. Essentially, new equipment comes on the market, and it has new technology. It's better equipment; it's better in competition and has better performance, and we are now going to be banned from that. We're going to have significant challenges acquiring those—if it's possible at all.

There are very few importers who will even take on the challenge of trying to work through the rules to find those exemptions where they're listed for Olympians.

However, being an Olympian is one thing. I mean, I'm the only pistol Olympian who has attended the last two Olympics. If we're talking only about supporting Olympians, we're talking about supporting me and that's about it. It means you ban all my teammates who are looking to make the Olympics.

If we're talking about Olympic sports, there is a huge number of people who are involved in these sports, but now we're shutting down the opportunities to participate in these sports. We're refusing people access to the equipment to be able to even try it. I see it as a significant impact.

[Raquel Dancho, Conservative, Kildonan—St. Paul, MB]

Thank you very much.

For more on that, I think perhaps folks who aren't familiar with firearms at all think all guns are created equal. They think they're all the same and that a gun's a gun. Certainly, that's absolutely not the case. Anyone who uses firearms at all would know that.

To your point, this is a vital tool, obviously, to competing at the Olympic level. We also have IPSC and other international competitive bodies and national competitive bodies.

To your point, if you're not able to hold the firearm before you buy it, and if you're not able to buy new parts for it or if it's very difficult to do so, to me, this really seems like it will certainly eliminate competitive sport shooting in Canada, which has been around for a very long time. Certainly the Conservatives are very proud to see you, Ms. Kiejko, as an Olympian representing us on the world stage.

Given these restraints, do you feel that there will be any more Olympians following you? What impact is this going to have on Olympic and competitive sport shooting in Canada?

[Lynda Kiejko]

Considering how hard it is to make the Olympics to begin with, we're talking.... At any Olympic games, maybe 300 athletes in the entire country actually make the Olympic games. We're talking about a very small number of people to begin with.

When we're talking about shooting sports, to be able to produce an Olympian you need a huge mass of people competing to push each other to do better and to strive for better achievements and performances. If you cut off access to the competition, the training and the teammates, you essentially obliterate any opportunity we have of putting an Olympian into the Olympics, let alone onto the podium.

You need the opportunity, the training and the availability.

[Raquel Dancho, Conservative, Kildonan—St. Paul, MB]

You mentioned a few countries that compete at the Olympic level in sport shooting. There are many of them. Can you list off a few of the top competitors in the world in sport shooting?

[Lynda Kiejko]

Some of the top competitors, off the top of my head, in my event specifically, are Ukraine, Greece and South Korea. China's going to be in there as well. Some of the others that are on the top list are escaping me, but throughout Europe...there's France as well.

[Raquel Dancho, Conservative, Kildonan—St. Paul, MB]

There's France and Germany. Yes, thank you very much.

Canada will no longer be able to compete, in essence, against those other countries that are supported by their governments—unlike ours. It's very disappointing.

Certainly the Conservatives are very proud that you have competed at the Olympic level and represented Canada with such pride and integrity. I wanted to put on the record how proud we are of you, Ms. Kiejko, for what it's worth.

To conclude, I have a few other things.

My understanding is that out of all the Olympic sports, sport shooting is one of the safest ones. As well, as you mentioned, you are not a violent person, yet you're being treated like you are.

In our concluding half a minute, could you comment on a few of those things?

[Lynda Kiejko]

Yes. There was a study done in 2016 and a new one in 2020 that literally listed off statistics of injuries in different events in different sports. Surprise, surprise—shooting doesn't have any, which I think is a huge testament to the safety culture we have in shooting sports. It's a safety culture. We're always going to be safe, and we're not going to have those injuries or incidents that are going to be there. There are studies available that actually prove that point.

[Raquel Dancho, Conservative, Kildonan—St. Paul, MB]

Thank you very much.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ron McKinnon]

Thank you, Ms. Dancho.

We'll go now to Ms. Damoff.

Ms. Damoff, please go ahead for six minutes.

[Pam Damoff, Liberal, Oakville North—Burlington, ON]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, Ms. Kiejko, for joining us again and providing us with your testimony.

I have a few questions about Olympic participation. You participate in the summer Olympics, and then we also have Olympians who participate in winter Olympics, in the biathlon. Is that correct?

[Lynda Kiejko]

Yes.

[Pam Damoff, Liberal, Oakville North—Burlington, ON]

Of the athletes who attend—and the first Olympics we went to was in 1908—how many participate in pistol shooting with you?

[Lynda Kiejko]

Since 1908...I don't have the number in front of me.

[Pam Damoff, Liberal, Oakville North—Burlington, ON]

That's okay. How many go to the Olympics with you when you go?

[Lynda Kiejko]

At the last two Olympics I was the only pistol shooter. Previous to that, in 2012, there was only one pistol shooter as well. I think we've had a pistol shooter in the Olympics every summer Olympics, I'm going to say, since probably the early eighties, when they split off men's and women's events. They've definitely had women in every event, I think, since 1984. There was even a gold medal at the 1984 Olympics in women's pistol shooting.

There's also been a long history of male pistol shooters. Since they changed the rules for how we qualify, there have been smaller shooting teams, I think, since 1996, based on how qualifications work. Prior to that, there were significant shooting teams across the rifle, pistol and shotgun disciplines that are available within the shooting sports.

I could be wrong, but we've been participating as Canada in shooting sports since the early 1900s, for sure.

[Pam Damoff, Liberal, Oakville North—Burlington, ON]

The numbers I had were 16 in pistol shooting and 84 with long guns. We're not talking about a lot of people here, but there is an exemption for elite Olympic shooters like you, is there not?

[Lynda Kiejko]

Sure there is, but how do you become an elite pistol shooter without training? Do you just come off the street and say that you think you're going to be an Olympic volleyball player today? It takes years of training. You put years of work and effort into it.

There's the rule of about 10,000 hours to become an expert in anything, and yet we're going to limit the people who are allowed to have an exemption to people who are already champions, who are already winning and who are already Olympians. That means you get rid of the entire sport. How do you prove that you want to become a professional or an Olympian in something before you actually can prove that you are one?

[Pam Damoff, Liberal, Oakville North—Burlington, ON]

What we're talking about are 16 people in the entire country, and right now it's just you.

[Lynda Kiejko]

You're talking about 16 people who have become Olympians. Do you understand how many other people are competing against them? There are a huge number of people competing against them.

I have teammates I train with all the time who have not yet made the Olympic level, yet you're going to restrict their equipment to say that they can never achieve that. That makes no sense. It's like telling soccer players that if they want to be a soccer player, they have to be an Olympic soccer player before they can actually have a ball. That's what you're saying.

[Pam Damoff, Liberal, Oakville North—Burlington, ON]

It's not. Gun ranges are still allowed to import and buy pistols as well.

I think at some point we as a society need to decide which is more important. I do commend you for representing your country, and I thank you for doing that, but as a society we also need to look at whether we want to see handguns continue to proliferate in our country. You will still have the ability to use them, Ms. Kiejko, but our government has determined that we would like to see a handgun freeze, and that is supported by the vast majority of Canadians from coast to coast to coast.

I'll leave it there, because I want to ask a question of our other witness.

Monsieur Renaud, I know you had concerns about the amendment, with the list of models that was put forward. Is there a definition that you think would be helpful to the government if we were to introduce an amendment?

[Marc Renaud]

Okay, thank you.

I'm going to refer that question to Emily Vallée, our communications coordinator.

[Emily Vallée, Communications Coordinator, Fédération québécoise des chasseurs et pêcheurs]

We actually don't have a definition to recommend at this time. Rather, we think the first step should be to establish objective criteria in order to develop a definition. Also, we recommend that the hunting and sport shooting community be consulted, to make sure the definition is clear. We don't have any definitive solutions to propose as regards the definition.

[Pam Damoff, Liberal, Oakville North—Burlington, ON]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ron McKinnon]

Thank you, Ms. Damoff.

Let's go to Ms. Michaud.

Ms. Michaud, you have six minutes.