Public Safety Committee on March 7th, 2023

[Grand Chief Ken Kyikavichik]

No. It targets some that we use, which we need to have further discussion and engagement on, but as we understand it, a lot of the weapons and rifles that we use are not mentioned specifically.

[Pam Damoff, Liberal, Oakville North—Burlington, ON]

Thank you.

I wonder if you could expand on the red flag for us. We had testimony from women's groups who were opposed to the red flag provision in the bill, and I noted that you said you are supportive of it. I, myself, am supportive of it because it's one more tool that we can offer for women. It's not perfect, but I'm just wondering if you could perhaps expand on that.

If I have time, Chief Lazare, I'll also go to you.

[Grand Chief Ken Kyikavichik]

Because of the prevalence of subsistence harvesters in our community, there's ease of access to firearms, and when we have situations of domestic violence, whether they're perpetrated by men or women, it is a concern, especially when you're in northern, remote communities with limited police support.

It is that view, as well as experiences that I am aware of that some of our people—especially our women—have had when they are in these types of situations and their health and safety is at immediate risk.... There does not seem to be enough swift action taken to protect these individuals so that they are not fearing for their lives as they're putting themselves and their children to sleep.

That is the view from which we look at this. It's an automatic rescindment so there is time to have the proper assistance provided to the impacted families—and the assailants themselves—because clearly there is something at risk going on that needs to be addressed.

[Pam Damoff, Liberal, Oakville North—Burlington, ON]

I have only about 30 seconds left.

Chief Lazare, I don't know if you had a chance to look at the red flag provision in the bill or not.

[Chief Jessica Lazare]

I will answer as briefly as possible.

I believe there is a bit of give and take in terms of that red flag provision. I know there are pros and cons. However, when it comes to the systemic racism that we have in policing, there are a lot of issues that need to be fixed before we can consider things like that.

[Pam Damoff, Liberal, Oakville North—Burlington, ON]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ron McKinnon]

Thank you, Ms. Damoff.

Now let's go to Ms. Michaud.

Ms. Michaud, you have six minutes.

[Kristina Michaud, Bloc, Avignon—La Mitis—Matane—Matapédia, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I want to thank the witnesses for being here with us.

I'm going to address Ms. Lazare first.

You're here testifying today, and you also issued a press release and sent a letter to the chair of our committee and to the Minister of Public Safety. But I'm wondering whether you support the spirit of the bill. You said it will have severe, unacceptable repercussions for your community.

Is that how you feel about amendments G‑4 and G‑46 alone, or about the bill as a whole?

[Chief Jessica Lazare]

It's essentially the whole bill.

As I mentioned before, lack of consultation is one of our major concerns, and it's important. Given the opportunity, we would give you a comprehensive perspective of our lived realities. It would allow your government to balance your perspectives, without having an adverse impact on indigenous people's ability to hunt and harvest.

Opportunities that allow us to deliberate on the common threads among our nations should be required in order to give you a more in-depth description of any special exemption or required amendments we would like to see.

[Kristina Michaud, Bloc, Avignon—La Mitis—Matane—Matapédia, QC]

What I'm hearing is that there was a serious lack of consultation, and the Minister of Public Safety didn't meet with you.

Is that correct?

[Chief Jessica Lazare]

We met with Mr. Mendicino. That was on February 22, 2023. That was, I think, about a week or two after we sent the letter.

[Kristina Michaud, Bloc, Avignon—La Mitis—Matane—Matapédia, QC]

Okay.

Did your conversation with him clear anything up or allay any of your concerns? What came out of that conversation?

[Chief Jessica Lazare]

It was beneficial, in the sense that we got to meet face to face. He got to see where we were coming from, as a council. He didn't just discuss it with one individual, but spoke with the whole council. He got a bit of our experience.

However, I do not deem that to be adequate consultation.

[Kristina Michaud, Bloc, Avignon—La Mitis—Matane—Matapédia, QC]

Thank you.

I'd like to come back to Bill C‑21.

In response to questions from my colleague, Ms. Damoff, you said that not enough was known about the list and that there wasn't enough information. We don't know which firearms you think should be on the list and which should not.

I'm trying to understand something. You're against the bill, which means you're against certain parts of it. I wonder if you could tell us more. Generally speaking, which firearms do your members use for hunting? Are there certain firearms you think should be exempt? How do you see this in general?

I understand that not everyone is happy with this bill, but the whole reason this committee is holding additional meetings is to come up with solutions for improving the process.

I gather that the main message you want to send is that more consultation of all the people affected by Bill C‑21 is needed.

Aside from that, do you have any recommendations for us?

[Chief Jessica Lazare]

I don't have any specific recommendations to make, because we weren't provided an opportunity to delegate or discuss among ourselves, as nations, in order to answer that.

The governance framework we work in is not necessarily a party kind of governance framework. It's more of a consensus-based framework. We all have differing opinions, perspectives and realities. As I said, give us the opportunity and time to come together to create that list of exemptions, so we can find the common threads. Then, we can suggest what to amend in this bill.

I'm one person. I am representing the Mohawk Council of Kahnawake. I cannot speak on behalf of other indigenous communities, essentially. However, I've been given the go-ahead to speak on behalf of the Iroquois Caucus, which feels the same way I do in regard to the lack of consultation and the time we have for consultation. It requires a lot of time and energy that governments don't have the patience for, as I've witnessed. They don't have the understanding of how there are a lot of different factors to consider.

[Kristina Michaud, Bloc, Avignon—La Mitis—Matane—Matapédia, QC]

Thank you.

Lastly, I have some questions I'd like to ask you about one thing that struck me.

In your letter, you wrote:

The Bill will place unfair burdens on the shoulders of the Peacekeepers who safeguard our territory and will increase the potential for discriminatory...over-policing of our people off-territory.

Could you give the committee some details about how the bill could make more work for your members who are peacekeepers?

[Chief Jessica Lazare]

As I mentioned, we have hunting territory in the Laurentians, about an hour away from our community. The peacekeepers are our entrusted enforcement for the community of Kahnawake, as well as Tioweró:ton. We have to travel an hour to get to that territory. However, if you start enforcing the gun restrictions, that hour from Kahnawake to Tioweró:ton is an hour wherein someone is risking...when they bring their weapons to that hunting territory. It's an hour they're risking.

We have our own jurisdiction in Kahnawake. That jurisdiction applies to Tioweró:ton. Because of colonization and developments, we are separated by an hour, and we are not connected to that territory. We cannot hunt in our territory.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ron McKinnon]

Thank you.

Thank you, Ms. Michaud.

We go now to Mr. Julian.

Mr. Julian, go ahead, please, for six minutes.

[Peter Julian, NDP, New Westminster—Burnaby, BC]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair, and thank you to our witnesses.

Grand Chief and Chief Lazare, you're offering valuable testimony today, which I think will help our committee look to tracing a path forward.

I'd like to start with you, Chief Lazare, to understand the issue of the lack of consultation you flagged in your presentation. You said you met with the minister on February 22. Prior to that, was the Mohawk Council, the Iroquois Caucus, consulted in any way about this legislation? If not, when was the last time that there was any approach from the federal government on firearms legislation?

[Chief Jessica Lazare]

There was none that I'm aware of right now. I am new to the Iroquois Caucus, so I am still getting briefed on the different files they've taken on. Based on previous discussions, they're not necessarily addressing Bill C-21, and they haven't been addressing Bill C-21 as of yet.

[Peter Julian, NDP, New Westminster—Burnaby, BC]

Prior to February 22, there just was no consultation. The federal government didn't come to you in any way, either to the council or to the caucus, to ask your views on the legislation.

[Chief Jessica Lazare]

No.

[Peter Julian, NDP, New Westminster—Burnaby, BC]

Okay. You have spoken very eloquently about the amendments. The NDP certainly shared your concerns about the amendments. We pushed procedurally to have them withdrawn.

On the principle of the bill around the handgun freeze, is there a position that either the Mohawk Council or the Iroquois Caucus has taken around the principle of a freeze on handguns?

[Chief Jessica Lazare]

No.

[Peter Julian, NDP, New Westminster—Burnaby, BC]

Okay. You have no position on that.