Public Safety Committee on March 10th, 2023

[Alistair MacGregor, NDP, Cowichan—Malahat—Langford, BC]

In other words, the amendments were brought in and then we saw the Minister of Public Safety make a trip up to the Yukon. Therefore, they were brought in and then consultation happened after the fact. Is that correct, or was it an attempt at consultation? I would label it more as an engagement and not a consultation.

[Joe Savikataaq]

I am not aware of anything that happened in Yukon territory, as I am in Nunavut. As I am aware, there were no consultations that took place in Nunavut.

[Alistair MacGregor, NDP, Cowichan—Malahat—Langford, BC]

Thank you for clarifying that and confirming that.

In our previous federal Parliament we passed into law Bill C-15. One of the primary aims of that legislation was to ensure that the Government of Canada, in consultation and co-operation with indigenous peoples, takes all measures necessary to ensure that the laws of Canada are consistent with the declaration.

We saw in December of last year that the Assembly of First Nations took a very unusual step in passing an emergency resolution that identified article 5, article 18, article 34 and article 39 as the reasoning that they were opposed to these amendments of Bill C-21.

In your mind, Mr. Savikataaq, do these amendments in the proposed legislation from the Government of Canada satisfy the principles of the government's previous Bill C-15 when it is attempting to harmonize Canada's laws with the declaration?

[Joe Savikataaq]

No, they do not. In my opinion, they do not do that.

[Alistair MacGregor, NDP, Cowichan—Malahat—Langford, BC]

I only have a couple of minutes left.

You detailed at length what these amendments would have done in terms of not only the safety of hunters living in your community but also food security. You mentioned that 22% of residents in your territory are living below the poverty line, and many have to supplement their diets from the land.

What does consultation mean to you? In order for the government to satisfy the legal requirements of Bill C-15, what does that mean? What, at a bare minimum, does the Government of Canada need to do with indigenous communities before introducing laws that can have this kind of profound impact on their way of life?

[Joe Savikataaq]

I'll start off by saying that maybe the 22% part there.... Please be aware that every Nunavut community is fly-in only. There is no road connected to here, so nothing can be trucked here. Everything is flown in, which raises the prices dramatically.

With regard to the consultation part, I believe that the proper way would be to consult with the people on the ground who will be affected. Consult not only certain people who could make decisions, but go right to the people who will be affected in person and on the ground. Have a foot there. That would be the best way to consult with the people on how to get the actual word from the heart of the people right on the ground.

[Alistair MacGregor, NDP, Cowichan—Malahat—Langford, BC]

Thank you.

I want to close by saying that I think it's incredibly important. This government has clearly identified a nation-to-nation relationship as being the most important relationship, and I think it's quite obvious in this instance that this very high bar has not been met.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ron McKinnon]

Thank you, Mr. MacGregor.

We'll start our second round. We have about 10 minutes left—less than 10 minutes—so we're going to abbreviate this round to four two-minute slots, one for each party. We'll start with Mr. Shipley.

Mr. Shipley, please go ahead for two minutes.

[Doug Shipley, Conservative, Barrie—Springwater—Oro-Medonte, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

This first question will be for Mr. Savikataaq.

Sir, I had the privilege and honour of coming up last summer to Iqaluit and spending a couple days. It was a great learning experience. On one of those days, we went out with a local gentleman for a seal harvest. It was a long day. It was on a boat on a very cold lake. It was windy. It was just an eye-opening experience.

He was successful in getting a seal that day. It took a long time to get one. It's not quite as easy as you would think. They harvest them with a long rifle. I don't have the calibre of what the gun was at the time.

Upon return to the community, it was heartwarming to see, once we got back to his home, his wife come running out with excitement that he had been able to get this seal. Even his children came out and watched and helped him dress that seal. They were going to be using every single part of that seal for feeding their family, for even making mittens. Anything left over was going to go to the dogs that they had for wintertime transportation.

Could you expand on how important the hunting is, and lifestyle, in the community up there? I also did take the time to go to a grocery store when I was up there, and I was astounded at the prices. Perhaps you can expand on that a little bit, please, sir.

[Joe Savikataaq]

I'd like to thank you for coming to Nunavut. I encourage everyone who is here listening across the country and our nation to come see our beautiful territory.

Hunting is so important. Like I said, we are so isolated. There are no roads connecting us. Everything is really expensive, and it's fly-in only. Prices are expensive. We get some subsidies on certain types of food. However, the main staple of our diet is country food, which comes from the land and from the water. That is very important to provide for people who are barely getting by. Many harvesters appear to help others in need. They go out for them. They get the food for them, and they deliver it to them, right to the house of the elders or anyone who might be...like a single mom or a single dad raising children.

In that way, that's very important. It really helps. It's very healthy food, all the country food that we get from using these firearms to provide for everyone and for food security, which is quite a serious issue up here in Nunavut.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ron McKinnon]

Thank you, sir.

Thank you, Mr. Shipley.

We will now go to Mr. Noormohamed.

Go ahead, please, sir. You have two minutes.

[Taleeb Noormohamed, Liberal, Vancouver Granville, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

First of all, Dr. Ahmed, thank you for what you do not just in your advocacy work but also as a physician.

I want to clear something up: There was some attempt to imply that, because you've met with the government, somehow you have undue influence over us, or we have undue influence over you. I think it's also important to note that members of the opposition—many of whom will make these claims—have met with the gun lobby numerous times in the last few months. This is an important point for us to make.

I want to clarify a couple of things.

Do you get paid to do the advocacy work you do?

[Dr. Najma Ahmed]

Thanks for the question.

No, none of us receives any salary or in-kind support for the work we do.

[Taleeb Noormohamed, Liberal, Vancouver Granville, BC]

Why would you do this, then? Why put yourself through this?

[Dr. Najma Ahmed]

Part of being a complete physician is advocating for the communities we serve. I'm a trauma surgeon. Many of the patients I primarily treat in my trauma practice are injured by gun violence. The overwhelming scientific evidence shows that a multipronged approach is required, including legislative action.

I am not the only one. Our organization has over 1,000 members. Our position statement is endorsed by 16 medical organizations, nursing groups and women's groups, all of which believe in the work we're doing. They comprise tens of thousands of members who also advocate for the health of the patients they serve.

[Taleeb Noormohamed, Liberal, Vancouver Granville, BC]

Thank you very much.

I hope my colleagues across the way heard your answer, because it's a very powerful testament to the important work you all do.

I want to thank you for taking the time to do what you do and to care for patients. I can't imagine the impact that work has on all of you. Thank you very much.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ron McKinnon]

Thank you, Mr. Noormohamed.

It is now Ms. Michaud's turn.

Ms. Michaud, you have two minutes.

[Kristina Michaud, Bloc, Avignon—La Mitis—Matane—Matapédia, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Dr. Kortbeet, I would like to ask you a question in closing.

In the open letter that you published with some of your colleagues last December, you indicated that it is quite possible to have legislation similar to Bill C‑21 while preserving hunting practices.

You mentioned other countries where this works quite well, including Australia, New Zealand, Norway, the United Kingdom and many others. That seems to be a desired and desirable compromise.

One of the biggest concerns people have about the G‑4 and G‑46 amendments is that they will no longer be able to hunt, which is not necessarily true.

Can you tell us a bit more about what you learned about the legislation in other countries?

[Dr. John B. Kortbeek]

The best-publicized one is probably the Firearms Act passed in Australia after the Port Arthur massacre. It restricts handguns and requires a reason to purchase them—target-shooting or some other rationale. They also have to go through training and use a borrowed gun at a gun club for six months prior to being issued their own firearm. They have to show continued active participation in a gun club to use the firearm. That is one approach. They banned semi-automatic weapons with large-capacity magazines, but they still have an active hunting culture, just as Canada does.

The U.K. went further. They banned handguns. They have an incidence of firearm homicides and admissions that's probably one-10th of ours. They took a different approach.

Ultimately, in public health, the solutions suggested need to be evidence-based, and those that are accepted need to be acceptable to the public. They have to be economically viable and feasible. They have to be legislative efforts the political parties can support, which is the exercise we're going through, right now.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ron McKinnon]

Thank you, ma'am.

[Dr. John B. Kortbeek]

Thanks.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ron McKinnon]

We'll now go to Mr. MacGregor.

Mr. MacGregor, please bring us home. You have two minutes.

[Alistair MacGregor, NDP, Cowichan—Malahat—Langford, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Mr. Savikataaq, maybe I'll direct my last question to you. It's obvious that the firearms issue in Canada brings forward strong emotions on both sides. We're a very regional country. The situations in our urban centres are quite different from those in our rural areas. Both of course do suffer from instances of firearms crime. I think ultimately every member at this table is trying to find a way forward. Everyone wants to have safer communities, and we also want to respect legal firearms ownership. You bring this important perspective from indigenous communities.

Perhaps you might want to offer your final thoughts. You've heard the concerns from people regarding firearms violence. What's your message to other parts of Canada and to the Government of Canada? Do you have any perspectives on a way forward that balances that need for public safety while respecting the rights of indigenous communities and hunters in your territory? Do you have any thoughts on what the best way forward in tackling this very big issue might be?

[Joe Savikataaq]

Thank you, Mr. MacGregor.

I respect everyone's views and stance and thoughts, but it's very easy for someone who is living down south in the urban area where they're connected to highways and grocery stores and everything to just pick up food. They don't need firearms and have no use for them. We're in a different world up here, in which we depend on firearms. That's how we get food. It's almost equivalent to your going to a grocery store to get what you need to survive. A firearm provides that for us, and it's so important for us to keep doing that.

Definitely there could be common ground that we could agree on to move forward, but not in a sneaky way. If something comes up again, go to the north, to Nunavut and all the territories and tell all the aboriginal people which firearms are going to be affected. If there is a common one, tell them it will be affected, because right now, with the writing on certain firearms, there are even single-shot firearms and shotguns with removable magazines on there. This will impact too many people. I fully understand where everyone is coming from, but the Government of Canada should keep in mind that we should be consulted if we're going to be affected, because with this we are the most impacted ones in this country.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ron McKinnon]

Thank you, Mr. Savikataaq. You had the last word on this panel, and rightly so.

Thank you, Mr. MacGregor.

With that, this panel is wrapped up.

To all of the witnesses, thank you for your participation today and for sharing with us your time and your expertise. It is most helpful to us.

As a video participant in this particular meeting, I'm also fully aware of the interpretation staff. I would like to acknowledge them. They are so often unsung, but they're always there in the background helping us out. As the chair, I apologize for not muting my microphone quite quickly enough. Thank you all.

Thank you to everyone for being here. With that, we are now adjourned.