Public Safety Committee on April 25th, 2023

[Talal Dakalbab]

There is a capacity, especially when we talk about ghost guns, to use some airsoft components. To be clear on what we heard from stakeholders as well as the police officers about airsoft guns, there is a concern that when they are identical—

[Dane Lloyd, Conservative, Sturgeon River—Parkland, AB]

In my five seconds, perhaps a ban on certain components rather than trying to ban an entire sport would be a better path forward to preventing this very rare occurrence from happening.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ron McKinnon]

Thank you, Mr. Lloyd.

I'd like to remind all members that our witnesses are here today in a non-partisan and non-political manner. They can't give opinions about things beyond that. They're not here to defend government policy but to explain it. I believe that would be the case.

Anyway, we'll go now to Mr. Noormohamed, please, for six minutes.

[Taleeb Noormohamed, Liberal, Vancouver Granville, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair. Thank you all for continuing to be here with us today. I'm sure this is exactly how you want to be spending your afternoon. We are very glad you are here with us.

If I could, I will start with you, Deputy Commissioner Larkin.

You have spent a lot of time in law enforcement. You've been a local chief of police. We've heard from all manner of organizations that have varying perspectives.

One thing that I think is really important for us to understand, as you continue your career in law enforcement now at the national level.... When we talk about a technical definition of an assault-style firearm, why is that important? What value does that actually bring to the conversation and to the way in which we think about keeping Canadians safe?

[D/Commr Bryan Larkin]

Thank you for the question and thank you for aging me.

On a serious note, the technical specifications allow our regime—our Canadian firearms program—to monitor, manage and license firearms, including monitoring their import and export, etc. It also provides frontline police officers with the ability, when they're doing investigations, to ensure they have the facts and issues around prosecution and the laying of charges. Without specific technical specifications, a form of regulation and a framework of managing the specifications of firearms, it would be difficult for them to pursue various investigations that meet the current threshold in the Criminal Code of Canada.

Again, our firearms program is a unique licensing regime that many other countries look at. It provides that framework for frontline police officers and specialized investigators to do their work and to ensure that they actually have the ability to advance investigations.

[Taleeb Noormohamed, Liberal, Vancouver Granville, BC]

In that vein, one gap that exists is the whole notion of how we think about ghost guns. Within the notion of classification, obviously there are things that are regulated and things that are not regulated. Things like barrels, slides and trigger assemblies are treated very differently from firearms themselves.

As we think about a path forward, what would be your reflections on the importance of perhaps thinking about components differently from the way we have thought about them in the past?

[D/Commr Bryan Larkin]

When we continue to do consultations with law enforcement partners and police of jurisdiction, clearly the issues of smuggling, straw purchasing, theft and private manufacturing—that is, ghost guns—are becoming more predominant in the discussion around the sourcing of crime guns.

From a policing perspective, the Canadian Association of Chiefs of Police believes that with the evolution of legislation, there is an opportunity to actually regulate ghost guns, manufacturing, parts and importation. Those are opportunities, from a policing perspective and a police leadership perspective, in partnership with Public Safety Canada, to manage and provide opportunities around enforcement, around licensing and around a framework that actually provides that ability.

I don't speak on behalf of all police leaders, but generally the RCMP—and I can speak on behalf of the CACP as the past president—is interested in engaging governors around the regulation of ghost guns, parts and manufacturing.

[Taleeb Noormohamed, Liberal, Vancouver Granville, BC]

Thank you.

In the minute that I have, I have a similar question for Mr. Dakalbab.

Obviously, you're responsible for the crime prevention branch. As part of your mandate, I imagine that looking at what types of crimes you're going to need to prevent going forward is probably part of your job.

If you think about ghost guns and in particular about components and the production of these types of weapons that are being used for crime, what would you say are the most important things for us to reflect on in this conversation?

[Talal Dakalbab]

I would reflect as well on my discussions with my colleagues internationally. Regarding ghost guns, if we want to have foresight policy, quite frankly this is a phenomenon that we're observing more and more as problematic. We hear it from police officers. Whether it's the components, whether it's the parts that are being used to add to something that is printed that is not heavy enough, these areas of concern are increasing in the country. I think that it's really key for the committee. You heard a lot of testimony about the concerns from police and also from stakeholders about ghost guns and components for sure, and we reviewed them as well.

[Taleeb Noormohamed, Liberal, Vancouver Granville, BC]

I think I may be out of time.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ron McKinnon]

It turns out I misled you. You have one minute left.

[Taleeb Noormohamed, Liberal, Vancouver Granville, BC]

That's excellent.

I'm going to keep going on this ghost gun thing, because I think it's really important.

Returning to the point that you just made about the international element to this, there is a growing concern internationally that creating forward-looking policy is key. Having now talked to your international colleagues, what are some of the things that you would say are lacking in Canada that should be part of this conversation going forward? What are you seeing as best practices in other parts of the world?

[Talal Dakalbab]

Obviously I'm not here to give any advice other than what we know.

Actually, in the report from SECU that you brought forward, there were recommendations. I always refer to them when I have discussions with stakeholders or others to seek their opinion. I believe recommendations 29 and 30 of your report talked exactly to these issues.

Quite frankly, I thought your recommendations were very well informed and very well formulated. This is the work that we continue doing—assessing with international partners and domestic stakeholders what their thoughts are and how we could address these issues to inform the advice to the government, for sure.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ron McKinnon]

Thank you, Mr. Noormohamed.

It's over now to Ms. Michaud for six minutes.

[Kristina Michaud, Bloc, Avignon—La Mitis—Matane—Matapédia, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I'd like to thank everyone for being here today. We're pleased to welcome you.

As you know, we, the members of Parliament, are lucky to be able to rely on the assistance of legislative analysts and advisors who guide us on the drafting of our amendments. When we get an idea, they often help us put it on paper in appropriate legislative language. They even give us recommendations or short notes saying that it's a good idea, or that it's doable, but that it might extend beyond the scope of the bill given that there is no clause in the current bill that addresses that issue, for example. This sometimes limits what we can do.

I know that the government can also rely on the Department of Justice for advice; in fact, I believe that various departments, including Justice, Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness, consulted one another on the drafting or tabling of amendments G‑4 and G‑46.

My question is for you, Mr. Dakalbab.

Did people at the Department of Justice ever tell you that amendments G‑4 and G‑46 went beyond the scope of Bill C‑21 and that another parliamentary measure would have to be introduced for procedural compliance? A parliamentary measure might mean something like a motion moved by the government to expand the scope of the bill.

Did you receive a comment of this kind from the Department of Justice?

[Talal Dakalbab]

As you know, owing to solicitor-lawyer privilege, I can't discuss that.

In answer to your question, all I can say is that it's not the kind of information I'm able to reveal, whether or not it exists. I'm sorry.

[Kristina Michaud, Bloc, Avignon—La Mitis—Matane—Matapédia, QC]

Thank you.

My questions are for the people from the RCMP.

Thank you, by the way, Mr. Larkin, for having shown us the RCMP vault a few weeks ago in Ottawa. I think that it's a visit the members ought to have made well before the start of the study of the bill. It certainly opened our eyes on various matters.

My colleague Mr. Lloyd spoke earlier about airsoft-type weapons, and said that it would be rather unusual to try to use an airsoft component in a real weapon to make it functional. Some witnesses had told us that if the attempt were made, it would likely not work very well.

And yet, in the RCMP vault, we saw that this was becoming increasingly widespread, and that replica firearms and airsoft-type firearms looked so much like the real thing that it was easy to do.

I was wondering whether there might not be an easy way of forcing manufacturers to make sure that components used in airsoft guns did not match or fit in real firearms. People who do sport shooting can't be prevented from doing so, but it's clear that the practice is becoming more widespread.

I realize that that this is a long preamble, but according to you, Mr. Larkin, is this something you have seen and is it becoming more widespread? Do you have the resources required to deal with it?

Ms. Paquette could also answer the question.

[Kellie Paquette]

Yes; it's actually a trend that we have seen.

We'll use the AR-15 firearms as an example. They are produced in the same size, and a lot of the components are the same components that are in the real firearm. What we're seeing is that these airsoft firearms will be replaced with the real firearm parts quite easily.

Most recently, I think there were 100 that we saw in B.C. We're seeing an increase of this happening.

[Kristina Michaud, Bloc, Avignon—La Mitis—Matane—Matapédia, QC]

The second part of my question is whether you have the resources needed to deal with the practice.

In the vault, we saw some 3D printers, ghost weapons and components for airsoft guns. While I tip my hat to all the efforts of the Royal Canadian Mounted Police and all the police services, the impression I get is that we'll never be able to keep up with the innovations of organized crime. The minute we manage to get some of the technologies under control, new ones are developed.

Do you feel you have the resources required to deal with all this?

[D/Commr Bryan Larkin]

Thank you for your question.

Over the last number of years, we have received ongoing investment in the Canadian firearms program. We actually created a new unit under Ms. Paquette's Canadian firearms program, NWEST, which does a significant amount of work.

Clearly, as this industry continues to grow, the airsoft industry and different pieces, and as those become wise around manufacturing and parts exchanges, etc., we would need to look at our organizational priorities and mandate as to how we reallocate resources. In short, we're always concerned about the priorities of our organization and how we adjust and align.

Crime trends do change. We're seeing significant change in violent crime in our country. Hence, as an organization, we're always shifting and looking at where we reallocate those resources. However finding the funding and the full-time equivalents to move into some of this work is a challenge.

The Canadian firearms program does excellent work, although it continues to face significant challenges in meeting the demands of Canadians.

[Kristina Michaud, Bloc, Avignon—La Mitis—Matane—Matapédia, QC]

Thank you very much.

I think I only have a few seconds left, so I'll stop there.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ron McKinnon]

Thank you, Ms. Michaud.

Mr. Julian, you have six minutes.

[Peter Julian, NDP, New Westminster—Burnaby, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair, and thank you to the witnesses for coming here to offer this important advice and answer our questions.

I think it was very relevant to hear about the loopholes that exist. It is true that there have been concerns raised about the loopholes around manufacturing being deliberately exploited. However, I think it was also important to raise the point that it is also because of the looseness of the current process around manufacturers. It can be inadvertent as well that they simply misclassify a firearm and bring it onto the market in an honour system accidentally, without understanding changes in the law.

I appreciated your clarifying that and answering those issues about the existing manufacturers' loopholes. I think it should give food for thought to every member of the committee that we have these loopholes, which can be either consciously exploited or inadvertently used to bring firearms into Canada that are not appropriate. I think we'll all reflect on those comments.

I want to come back to ghost guns, because that is another major concern. I know it's a concern with law enforcement right across the country. Where I come from, in the Lower Mainland, it's been raised. The Biden administration has recently taken action against ghost guns. The statistics that were cited were 20,000—an astounding number—untraceable firearms that have been seized as part of criminal investigations in the past year alone.

Would you have similar numbers available for Canada over the past year on the number of ghost guns, untraceable weapons, that have been used in the commission of criminal offences? I find 20,000 to be astounding. That is a 1,000% increase over the last couple of years. We're talking about a dramatic impact from criminals being able to access untraceable weapons.

[Matthew Taylor, General Counsel and Director, Criminal Law Policy Section, Department of Justice]

I can try to play quarterback here.

I think the challenge here with ghost guns is that you would see offences recorded, charges laid or prosecutions entered under manufacturing, under illegal trafficking. We can't disaggregate the data that we have currently through Statistics Canada to be able to say of those charges, of those offences, how many involved ghost guns.

In your committee's study previously, Mr. Dakalbab talked about a lot of anecdotal evidence in terms of police seizures of ghost guns, but I think it's very difficult to be able to give you the kind of data you're looking for.

[Peter Julian, NDP, New Westminster—Burnaby, BC]

Thank you.

It's because it is not being compiled. Anecdotally, certain law enforcement agencies in certain parts of the country have seen a tenfold increase, and I've heard of a fortyfold increase in one community.

How would we be able to get those figures? If they're not being compiled now, what are the steps required so that we would have an accurate assessment on the number of these untraceable weapons used in criminal offences in the way that the United States has? They have that massive number of 20,000.

How would we get to develop that data if it's not available to us now?