Public Safety Committee on May 30th, 2023

[Kristina Michaud, Bloc, Avignon—La Mitis—Matane—Matapédia, QC]

You talked about systemic issues, and that's one of the CBSA union's concerns. The union says that if a problem should arise between a particular officer and a Canadian and they realize that the problem comes from a little higher up, the officer mustn't just be reprimanded. We have to go a little further and find out whether a manager is involved or whether this practice has become systemic within the agency.

How is this new commission going to deal with that issue? Is it only the officers themselves who will be reprimanded? If so, what will those reprimands consist of?

Do you have more information to give us on that?

[Marco Mendicino, Liberal, Eglinton—Lawrence, ON]

In my opinion, the admissibility of complaints about the RCMP referred to the Civilian Review and Complaints Commission is not determined by the classification of an officer's or an employee's position.

If a Canadian has interacted with a supervisor or with someone else, the commission's mandate is flexible enough to conduct a review that sheds light on all the facts. We will only be able to build public trust with a robust mandate that's flexible and also allows us to look at systemic issues.

[Kristina Michaud, Bloc, Avignon—La Mitis—Matane—Matapédia, QC]

You mentioned an investment of $112 million over five years, in addition to regular annual funding, which will help fulfill mandates. If I understand correctly, that amount is spread over five years, not just one year. That works out to about $20 million a year. Am I right? If not, in your opinion, is that enough?

What timelines should Canadians expect for dealing with complaints? You said that Canadians were often afraid to file a complaint due to the lengthy and cumbersome process.

In your opinion, are we adequately funding this new entity?

[Marco Mendicino, Liberal, Eglinton—Lawrence, ON]

The short answer is yes, but I'd like to make a slight clarification. It is, in fact, $112.3 million over six years, not five years. After that, the investment will be $19.4 million a year.

We will continue to have discussions with the new commission, but in my opinion, the investments are being used to establish the commission, which will serve all Canadians.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ron McKinnon]

Thank you, Ms. Michaud.

We go now to Mr. Julian.

Mr. Julian, please go ahead for six minutes.

[Peter Julian, NDP, New Westminster—Burnaby, BC]

My question is very simple. Since we have seen with CBSA 16 deaths over the last 20 years—serious complaints—on what basis have you evaluated the financing to ensure that these complaints are dealt with properly, particularly when we look at other government institutions where the complaints process is simply mired because there have not been sufficient resources put into place?

How did you evaluate, on the basis of $19 million a year, to ensure...? Was it based on the number of complaints? On what basis have you evaluated that funding to ensure that [Technical difficulty—Editor]

[Marco Mendicino, Liberal, Eglinton—Lawrence, ON]

Chair, I want to thank Mr. Julian for his question. It's very important.

Before I preview the answer, I just want to echo the sentiment that my sincere hope is that by doing the work, we will be able to pass this bill this time. I think that recent collaboration gives us a path forward on this legislation in Bill C-20.

As to your exact question, I would say that my officials who are here can provide you with details, but certainly we would look at the existing human resource complement under the CRCC. We would take a look at the volume of complaints. We would take a look at the CBSA as well.

In general terms, we would have informed ourselves about what baseline resources are required, and then we would continue to consult, I'm sure, with the chairperson of the existing CRCC to get the best possible advice, so that the estimates that have been provided, and the investments as well, will allow for the establishment of this committee in a way that will meet the demands of the complaints that we anticipate getting from both organizations.

[Peter Julian, NDP, New Westminster—Burnaby, BC]

I'll question the officials who are here when we get that opportunity, and thank you for being here.

While you're here, I want to jump right on to a question that was asked of you in the House by my predecessor in this position, Alistair MacGregor, who I think had three opportunities to ask you questions about ensuring, within the oversight body, the active participation of indigenous peoples. This is something that is fundamental, given the complaints that we are seeing with the RCMP. The fact is that there have been a number of egregious cases where indigenous people, quite rightly, have felt they were treated appallingly, in some cases tragically, by the RCMP.

At the time, you were noncommittal. Now, six months later, you're in front of this committee, so what is your response in terms of ensuring in this oversight body that there's active participation of indigenous peoples?

[Marco Mendicino, Liberal, Eglinton—Lawrence, ON]

Mr. Chair, I can assure you, Mr. Julian and all the members of the committee that we are very committed to working with this committee to ensure that there is appropriate representation on this commission, including from indigenous communities. That is deeply important to me.

I will say—

[Peter Julian, NDP, New Westminster—Burnaby, BC]

What does that mean, specifically?

[Marco Mendicino, Liberal, Eglinton—Lawrence, ON]

I think, to begin with, it's making sure that we have a member. How we go about achieving that or potentially more will all depend on the consultations, but it is important that indigenous people see themselves reflected in all institutions, including on this commission. Through conversations and consultations with indigenous leadership, I think we can find a mechanism to achieve that goal.

I also want to say that I agree with you that indigenous people, for many generations have been disproportionately represented in their interactions with law enforcement institutions and in federal incarceration facilities. To reverse that, we have to move more upstream, and one of the ways in which we can prevent future disproportionate impacts is to study the issue. As I mentioned, this commission will have the mandate to do that. It will have the mandate to collect and disaggregate race-based data, and it will also have the benefit of doing that.

On the point you make around representation, we'll work very closely and have worked closely with indigenous communities to make sure they are represented within this organization.

[Peter Julian, NDP, New Westminster—Burnaby, BC]

My final question for this round will be around one of the criticisms of the bill, that the public doesn't have the ability to file systemic complaints with the PCRC. Are you open to amendments that would allow for public interest, third party complaints to be filed with this new entity?

[Marco Mendicino, Liberal, Eglinton—Lawrence, ON]

Mr. Julian, you'll know from my record that I'm always open to studying amendments presented in good faith that may strengthen the bill.

I would point out that there are mechanisms within the process right now that allow organizations to study what we have defined as serious issues, and serious issues could touch on policy and/or systemic issues, moving beyond the facts of a particular individual or case and looking more broadly at issues.

If you think there is a way in which to improve upon that process, of course we would be prepared to consider that as well.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ron McKinnon]

Thank you, Mr. Julian.

Let's start our second round of questions at this point.

Ms. Dancho, please go ahead for five minutes.

[Raquel Dancho, Conservative, Kildonan—St. Paul, MB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you to the minister and officials for being here on this important bill.

Certainly, Conservatives, as you know, have supported it in committee. Notwithstanding any curveball, sneaky amendments from any other party, we will likely be supporting this all the way. We recognize that when police—and border officers, of course—wield significant power to enforce the law, they need an equivalent oversight body to ensure they are held accountable, as you outlined in your remarks.

I just want to clarify this for folks who may not understand what it is we're all sitting here talking about: This is a new commission that upgrades, you could say, the existing commission that oversees RCMP complaints, but it also, newly, brings CBSA in on that.

Is that an accurate assessment, in brief?

[Marco Mendicino, Liberal, Eglinton—Lawrence, ON]

Yes. It's adding not just CBSA but also authorities for both the RCMP and the CBSA.

[Raquel Dancho, Conservative, Kildonan—St. Paul, MB]

It's somewhere to make complaints.

I have asked this question, but to clarify, they can make it at their local RCMP detachment or a local port of entry, or they can contact this commission online when it's established. Is that accurate?

[Marco Mendicino, Liberal, Eglinton—Lawrence, ON]

I think you're roughly correct, yes.

[Raquel Dancho, Conservative, Kildonan—St. Paul, MB]

Okay.

I want to ask, as well, if you'll allow me.... Considering complaints and things like that about bad actors.... Of course, we have seen in the news that there are more PRC police stations operating.

I'm wondering where Canadians would make complaints regarding those bad actors.

[Marco Mendicino, Liberal, Eglinton—Lawrence, ON]

You're referring to.... I'm sorry, Ms. Dancho. I—

[Raquel Dancho, Conservative, Kildonan—St. Paul, MB]

It's the PRC police stations. We found out there are two more, likely.

[Marco Mendicino, Liberal, Eglinton—Lawrence, ON]

You're not referring to the PCRC.

[Raquel Dancho, Conservative, Kildonan—St. Paul, MB]

No, I mean the PRC—the illegally operating Chinese ones.

[Marco Mendicino, Liberal, Eglinton—Lawrence, ON]

Ms. Dancho, those so-called police stations do not have any legal status in Canada. We're here talking about Canadian law enforcement institutions—

[Raquel Dancho, Conservative, Kildonan—St. Paul, MB]

We certainly are, but given that you're here—