Public Safety Committee on June 2nd, 2023

[Doug Shipley, Conservative, Barrie—Springwater—Oro-Medonte, ON]

Thank you.

Does either one of you have an opinion on the removal of the judicial review clause from this bill?

[Perla Abou-Jaoudé]

Could you tell us which article you're referring to? I'm sorry.

[Doug Shipley, Conservative, Barrie—Springwater—Oro-Medonte, ON]

I don't have that right in front of me, and I don't have my staff two feet behind me, but there was in place, in the past, if information wasn't brought forward, an opportunity to go to a judicial review and ask them to review and have that released.

[Perla Abou-Jaoudé]

We would definitely encourage it. I'm sorry, I'm not sure where it is in the project, but we definitely encourage that there is a judicial review possible, because it is more than important. The agency has a lot of discretion. Bill S-8 also gave them even more power. We don't have access to judicial review, so we think a judicial review is really important to be able to catch the cases that fall through the cracks.

[Doug Shipley, Conservative, Barrie—Springwater—Oro-Medonte, ON]

Thank you for that.

I want to go back to Mr. Cappe, and I have only about 30 seconds left, so I need a short answer on this one.

Mr. Cappe, would you like to see any type of information campaign or a code of conduct for CBSA officers alongside this Bill C-20, so they can have absolute clarity on their obligations, such as informing individuals of their right to file a complaint under this legislation?

[Prof. Mel Cappe]

I think that's possible and probably desirable, but it's an administrative decision of the agency. I wouldn't put it into law.

[Doug Shipley, Conservative, Barrie—Springwater—Oro-Medonte, ON]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ron McKinnon]

Thank you, Mr. Shipley.

We'll go now to Mr. Noormohamed.

Go ahead, sir, for five minutes.

[Taleeb Noormohamed, Liberal, Vancouver Granville, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you to the witnesses for being with us.

Mr. Cappe, it's nice to see you again after so many years.

Ms. Abou‑Jaoudé, one of the major shortcomings we hope to address is the concern various communities have regarding their lack of recourse and their inability to file a complaint after having a negative experience with a CBSA officer, including feeling discriminated against.

I want to make clear that that's not what happens in the vast majority of cases. When it does happen, however, the idea is to ensure that communities have some recourse. Do you think the bill does that?

What should we do to make sure those on the front lines feel as though they are part of the solution?

[Perla Abou-Jaoudé]

If I understand what you're asking, I would say that the bill is an excellent step in that direction. Giving third parties the ability to make complaints amounts to giving cultural communities a point of access for reporting problems they've had.

Third parties may submit complaints individually, but when a complaint is reported over and over again to organizations like ours, our members talk about it and usually it's pretty easy to pinpoint a particular problem, whether in a certain office or location. It's much easier for an organization like ours to submit a complaint and flag the different problems experienced by various communities. We also think it would bring some impartiality to the process.

[Taleeb Noormohamed, Liberal, Vancouver Granville, BC]

What do you think prevents members of various communities from feeling comfortable enough to submit complaints against public safety agencies, and why? Can you tell us what makes third parties so important?

[Perla Abou-Jaoudé]

Take someone whose refugee protection claim was denied. CBSA has an obligation to remove them from Canada as soon as possible. Submitting a complaint could signal that the file needs to be updated, prompting the officer to conclude that the file is ready and the person needs to be removed from the country. That alone puts pressure on the person not to complain.

If a problem is reported and nothing is done, the fact that a third party can bring the complaint to the administration and a commission provides another complaint access point. That's a straightforward, but common example.

[Taleeb Noormohamed, Liberal, Vancouver Granville, BC]

Great. Thank you.

Mr. Cappe, I saw you nodding as the previous witness was speaking. When it comes to this issue of being able to bridge the gap between communities feeling safe and officers feeling like they're part of the solution, along with this law what are some of the things you think need to happen to ensure that not just the letter but the spirit of the law is actually manifested on the front lines?

[Prof. Mel Cappe]

I come back to something Mr. Shipley raised.

Should the agency make it clear to people that they have the right to complain? The answer is yes, but there's also an outreach that should be undertaken from the agency to those communities, and we've seen this. CSIS has a consultative forum with some of the Nordic communities, and it's something that builds trust and confidence. We go back to those first principles; anything that will build trust and confidence, I think, is a good thing.

[Taleeb Noormohamed, Liberal, Vancouver Granville, BC]

I'll yield the time I have left back to the Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ron McKinnon]

Thank you, Mr. Noormohamed.

Ms. Michaud, go ahead. You have two and a half minutes.

[Kristina Michaud, Bloc, Avignon—La Mitis—Matane—Matapédia, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Mr. Cappe, I know you have tremendous experience in government, and I wondered what you thought of the fact that it's been 20 years since the recommendation to create an independent body was made to the federal government. Justice O'Connor chaired the very high-profile public inquiry leading to the recommendation to create an independent mechanism to handle complaints from the public. In 2020, the Privacy Commissioner also noted significant failings in the practice of searching passengers' personal electronic devices. He, too, recommended an independent complaint mechanism.

Do you think it took the government too long to act? This is the third attempt. Twice, in the previous two Parliaments, similar legislation was brought forward but, unfortunately, was never prioritized, so it died on the Order Paper.

Do you think actions to restore the public's trust in the RCMP and CBSA are long overdue? Both public safety organizations have received negative media attention in recent years for a variety of reasons. I'm not blaming the officers, because every case is different. Nevertheless, a number of cases were publicized.

Do you think it was important for the government to establish a transparent process to restore the public's trust?

[Prof. Mel Cappe]

I'm not surprised it took so long, but as I told Mr. Shipley, I think the other bodies were much more important. It's understandable why this legislation was overlooked in relation to the legislation establishing those other bodies.

Restoring public trust is the keystone of all those legislative measures. I don't know what the best way to do that is, but it's very important in all cases.

[Kristina Michaud, Bloc, Avignon—La Mitis—Matane—Matapédia, QC]

Thank you.

I think, at this point, everyone welcomes the legislation, and Bill C‑20 has a lot of positives. Do you worry, as other witnesses do, that the lack of resources will make the process longer and more burdensome? That would deter people from filing a complaint or seeing the process through.

[Prof. Mel Cappe]

I don't have an opinion on that, since I haven't looked into the issue of adequate resources yet. It comes back to the agency's objectives. The agency enforces nearly one hundred pieces of legislation. As I mentioned, those measures involve everything from the Canadian Wildlife Service and Fisheries and Oceans Canada to Agriculture and Agri-Food Canada, so it's a lot more complex than it seems. What's more, the agency handles 30 million business transactions and administers border crossing measures. To do all of that, the agency needs adequate resources.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ron McKinnon]

Thank you, Ms. Michaud.

I was asleep at the switch.

Go ahead, sir.

[Peter Julian, NDP, New Westminster—Burnaby, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

My questions are for you, Mr. Desbiens and Ms. Abou‑Jaoudé.

The commission will be made up of five people, so what criteria should be used to ensure that the commission is responsive to people's needs in the course of its work?

What kinds of people do you think the members of the commission should be?

[Perla Abou-Jaoudé]

To be perfectly frank, I have to tell you that we haven't given that a lot of thought, so I can't provide a detailed answer. However, I think expertise and open-mindedness would be good qualities for members to have, and having members from cultural communities would be a tremendous asset. The commission could have someone with an agency background to represent the agency's reality. Some diversity would be beneficial in every respect.

I'm not sure whether Mr. Desbiens has anything to add.

[Vincent Desbiens]

I'll just say that it isn't a question we've considered, but we are of course taking note of all the questions we aren't able to answer. We will try to address that question in the follow-up document we send.

[Peter Julian, NDP, New Westminster—Burnaby, BC]

Do you think the commission should have at least one person with experience working with refugee claimants and prospective immigrants? Do you think it's important for the commission to have someone like that?