Evidence of meeting #69 for Public Safety and National Security in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was complaints.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Brian Sauvé  President, National Police Federation
Heather Campbell  Calgary Police Commissioner, As an Individual
Mark Weber  National President, Customs and Immigration Union
Mel Cappe  Professor, School of Public Policy & Governance, University of Toronto, As an Individual
Perla Abou-Jaoudé  Lawyer, Quebec Immigration Lawyers Association
Vincent Desbiens  Lawyer, Quebec Immigration Lawyers Association

9:45 a.m.

Bloc

Kristina Michaud Bloc Avignon—La Mitis—Matane—Matapédia, QC

Thank you.

I'd also like you to tell us about the status of CBSA agents as public safety personnel. But I think my colleague Mr. Julian is going to ask you about that. So I'll to take this opportunity to ask you about one of the points you raised in a Radio-Canada article. You expressed concern that Bill C‑20 would increase tensions between employees and management.

You mentioned the labour shortage earlier. Now, an agent who is the subject of a complaint can be put on unpaid leave, sometimes for a long time. You said that handling complaints could last for several years.

What more can you tell us about this?

Aren't you concerned that the bill will eventually lead to a shortage of agents?

9:45 a.m.

National President, Customs and Immigration Union

Mark Weber

The number of people who are placed on leave without pay for serious allegations is not to the point where it would cause us to run out of officers. The deficit of officers we have is something that's existed for a long time, and it is extreme. However, for people who are placed on leave without pay pending the outcome of an investigation, because the allegation is deemed to be that serious, it is life-changing and devastating to them.

I understand that some allegations can be extremely serious. However, imagine the situation they're in. Even when it's found at the end of the investigation that they've done nothing wrong, they're told to file a grievance to get their salary back. That is not acceptable to our union at all. As far as I know, that's unique to the CBSA.

9:45 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Ron McKinnon

Thank you.

Mr. Julian, you have two and a half minutes, please.

9:45 a.m.

NDP

Peter Julian NDP New Westminster—Burnaby, BC

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

These are such good witnesses. I wish we had more time with them.

I'm going to go to Ms. Campbell.

Thank you very much for your testimony today. You've spoken very eloquently about the importance of overcoming systemic racism, systemic homophobia and systemic discrimination against indigenous women and indigenous people.

Does Bill C-20 address those issues in your mind? If it doesn't yet as a bill, what are the things that need to be added to the bill and what are the other issues the federal government needs to start responding to so that we can start to make this sea change to overcome systemic discrimination?

9:45 a.m.

Calgary Police Commissioner, As an Individual

Heather Campbell

Where Bill C-20 is lacking in terms of being able to address systemic racism and discrimination and the bias that is inherent is in providing the oversight body the accountability and strategic direction to set those priorities and that expectation for policing bodies and the CBSA to transform their culture.

There needs to be an expectation set in some piece of legislation or regulation to enable these policing bodies to actually do the work to transform their culture and have it be measured and assessed.

9:45 a.m.

NDP

Peter Julian NDP New Westminster—Burnaby, BC

What are the things the federal government should be doing so that we can eliminate these barriers and eliminate this discrimination?

9:45 a.m.

Calgary Police Commissioner, As an Individual

Heather Campbell

Well, in terms of having the data, once you've collected all this wonderful data and you've done all your reconciliations and you've done the reporting, it's a question of who has the accountability to actually act on that data.

This is where the government needs to set an expectation in some form of legislation that there is the public oversight body that has the accountability for making that transformation and actually measuring. How do we do it? This is the work I'm currently tasked with doing in Calgary. I've been a commissioner for two and a half years, and I am still working on it.

9:50 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Ron McKinnon

Thank you, Mr. Julian.

Thank you to all our witnesses. You have been most helpful. Thank you for sharing your time and your expertise with us.

We will suspend briefly and bring in the next panel.

9:55 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Ron McKinnon

I call this meeting back to order. Thank you.

With us today by video conference we have, as an individual, Mr. Mel Cappe, professor, School of Public Policy and Governance, University of Toronto, and, from the Quebec Immigration Lawyers Association, Ms. Perla Abou-Jaoudé and Mr. Vincent Desbiens.

We will start with five-minute opening statements from each group. We'll start with Professor Cappe.

Please go ahead, sir, for five minutes.

June 2nd, 2023 / 9:55 a.m.

Prof. Mel Cappe Professor, School of Public Policy & Governance, University of Toronto, As an Individual

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I'm a former public servant. I was for 30 years in the government of Canada. I was appointed to the ranks of deputy minister by Prime Minister Mulroney and then served as Clerk of the Privy Council under Prime Minister Chrétien. I served as High Commissioner to the U.K. in the government of Prime Minister Stephen Harper. “Non-partisan” is my middle name.

I'm now a distinguished fellow at the Munk School of Global Affairs and Public Policy at the University of Toronto.

In 2017, I conducted a study for the Department of Public Safety on the lack of review capacity at the Canada Border Services Agency. I recommended closing this gap by—

9:55 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Ron McKinnon

Excuse me, sir. We're not getting translation here.

9:55 a.m.

Professor, School of Public Policy & Governance, University of Toronto, As an Individual

Prof. Mel Cappe

Okay. Well, then, I'll say it in English, if that helps.

9:55 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Ron McKinnon

That's okay. We have to have translation in both languages.

Pardon, Mr. Julian?

9:55 a.m.

NDP

Peter Julian NDP New Westminster—Burnaby, BC

I have a point of order.

9:55 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Ron McKinnon

Yes, absolutely.

9:55 a.m.

NDP

Peter Julian NDP New Westminster—Burnaby, BC

I just wanted to make something very clear to all the witnesses. I encourage them to give their testimony in French. If there are any problems with the interpretation, they can continue in French anyway. It's up to us to solve the problem, it's not up to them to switch languages.

9:55 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Ron McKinnon

Yes. We're certainly not asking people to change languages.

I believe we have interpretation once again.

Sir, if you wouldn't mind starting over, we'll start your time right from the beginning.

9:55 a.m.

Professor, School of Public Policy & Governance, University of Toronto, As an Individual

Prof. Mel Cappe

Sure. I made the point that I was not affiliated with any political party and that I was a public servant for 30 years and now teach at the Munk School of Global Affairs and Public Policy at the University of Toronto.

In 2017, I conducted a study for the Department of Public Safety on the lack of review capacity at the Canada Border Services Agency. I recommended closing this gap through the creation of a review panel on the agency, similar to what is proposed in Bill C‑20.

I would like to underscore for the committee a few guiding principles or objectives that members might like to keep in mind while assessing Bill C-20.

The first is to promote the safety and security of Canada and Canadians. The second is to protect and respect the rights of Canadians. The third is to build trust and confidence in the agencies in the portfolio. The fourth is to ensure adequate accountability of these agencies, both for their actions and their management of complaints. As an alternative to what you heard from Mr. Sauvé before, I'd like to see that the responsibility is on the agency and not transferred to the commission. The fifth is to maintain secrecy and privacy. The sixth is to protect the rights of officials who are appropriately exercising their statutory duties, as Mr. Weber pointed out, and the last is to avoid duplication and promote co-operation.

There are also some constraints that I would suggest you have to decide how to balance.

First, the Government of Canada does not have a mandate for all security and safety issues. There are local and provincial police as well. Not all safety and security activities, even at the federal level, fall under the mandate of the Minister of Public Safety.

Building confidence and trust is often in conflict with secrecy. We've seen that recently. Issues are not always agency-specific. You need to be able to follow the thread across agencies and commissions. You must respect the complexity and difficulty of using intelligence as evidence, and good law enforcement requires good service delivery.

Finally, sometimes it's about officer conduct in the exercise of authority and discretion, and sometimes—and here's the one area in which I think Bill C-20 could be improved and in which I support the previous three witnesses, Sauvé, Campbell and Weber—it's a problem of systemic review.

An office with too many complaints or a type of complaint going beyond a particular officer may require the commission to initiate a review. Mr. Chiang, in the last session, appropriately pointed out that clause 28 allows the commission to initiate reviews, but only on “policy, procedure or guideline[s]”. I think that could be elaborated.

I would encourage you to find the sweet spot between the objectives and constraints.

The sweet spot is often in the eye of the beholder, and I think this bill does a reasonable job of finding that balance.

I'll be happy to answer any questions you have.

10 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Ron McKinnon

We'll go now to Ms. Perla Abou-Jaoudé for the Quebec Immigration Lawyers Association for five minutes, please.

10 a.m.

Perla Abou-Jaoudé Lawyer, Quebec Immigration Lawyers Association

I'm going to let my colleague speak for the association, and then I'll answer the questions.

10 a.m.

Vincent Desbiens Lawyer, Quebec Immigration Lawyers Association

Good morning everyone.

Thank you for inviting us to appear before the committee today.

The Association québécoise des avocats et avocates en droit de l'immigration, or AQAADI, was founded in 1991 and represents more than 500 lawyers in Quebec in the specific field of immigration and refugee protection law.

AQAADI's objectives are, among other things, to ensure that citizenship, refugee protection and immigration laws and policies are drafted and applied in accordance with the principles of fairness, and that they adequately meet the needs of Quebec and Canada while respecting the Constitution, the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms and international treaties ratified by Canada.

First and foremost, we applaud the introduction of Bill C‑20. We would like to emphasize the importance of implementing a third-party monitoring system of the Canada Border Services Agency and its employees. In our view, not only is it essential to protect the public, but also for the administration of sound, efficient and transparent justice.

On this last point, it's important to note that the Canada Border Services Agency intervenes in many quasi-judicial proceedings at the Immigration and Refugee Board, which are related to the immigration process, whether it's on detention issues, asylum claims or even removals. However, most of the agency's representatives are not lawyers and don't have to answer to the same regulatory bodies or are subject to the code of ethics for lawyers. Consequently, in the event of misconduct on the part of a CBSA representative, there is not much recourse against them and, for the time being, any action taken is governed solely by the CBSA's internal processes. Our members' experience in the field has shown us that this is not enough to oversee the quality of their work and guarantee the sound administration of justice.

For this reason, we respectfully suggest that the definition of serious incident in section 14.1 of the proposed Canada Border Services Agency Act be amended to include any incident that may interfere with the administration of justice or the proper conduct of a judicial process, and thus not limit the scope of the Act to an incident defined as serious.

By the same token, we believe that the definition of a serious incident should also include any behaviour that would result in a violation of rights and freedoms, including the unfounded detention or the extension of an individual's detention. Although detention does not necessarily result inserious bodily harm or death, it nevertheless causes irreparable harm, since it is a violation of the right to liberty and time spent in detention can never be recovered, not to mention the psychological fallout.

In the same vein, certain provisions of Bill C‑20 refer to arrest and detention by the Canada Border Services Agency, but there is no clear definition of these terms. For example, subsection 13(2) states that the commission's annual report must include “the number of complaints filed under this act by persons detained by the Agency”. Section 86, however, states that “a person who is arrested or detained by an officer or employee of the Canada Border Services Agency is entitled to be informed as soon as possible of his or her right to make a complaint under Part 2 and of the manner of doing so.”

In our experience, the CBSA has a very restricted definition of arrest or detention by one of its employees. In this respect, with regard to the massive arrival of refugees over the past few years, several asylum seekers were arrested by the RCMP after an irregular crossing of the land border, and within hours were handed over to the CBSA. However, many of them remained at the border under CBSA control for days, and in some cases for more than a week, without being considered arrested or detained. As a result, the process to ensure the legality of their detention under the Immigration and Refugee Protection Act was not initiated for several days.

This is just one example, but it is crucial, in our view, to have a clear definition of what detention and arrest mean so that it is not left to the discretion of the agency, and that the provisions in question apply as soon as an individual is detained or arrested.

Furthermore, in our opinion, the deadline set out in section 33(2) for lodging a complaint is too short. This is specifically based on the fact that current delays in immigration processes exceed one year. On this point, the current average time for an asylum claim to be processed is about two years. Based on our experience with our clients, who are often a vulnerable position, we believe that potential complainants would be reluctant to initiate this type of procedure out of fear that it would negatively affect their chances of success, or even speed up their removal.

Finally, we found that most decisions or opinions of the commission in connection with a complaint, such as the decision not to investigate a complaint as provided for in section 38, or a report on the complaint as described in section 49, or the commission's final report, are disclosed solely to the complainant. We suggest that a copy of any communication should also be disclosed to the complainant's legal representative. Indeed, in many cases, the person concerned may have been removed from Canada, particularly as the complaint process does not provide for a stay of removal. Should this occur, it is highly unlikely that the commission would have the individual's new contact information, whereas it is more likely that the legal representative would.

In the same vein, it would also make sense to allow third parties, organizations, to file complaints.

In the end, we respectfully submit to you that the passage of this bill is crucial, but that appropriate changes must still be made to frame the agency's conduct as well as its policies. This is necessary to ensure public protection and a sound, efficient and transparent administration of justice.

Thank you.

10:05 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Ron McKinnon

Thank you.

We'll now start our round of questions.

We'll start with Mr. Lloyd.

You have six minutes, sir.

10:05 a.m.

Conservative

Dane Lloyd Conservative Sturgeon River—Parkland, AB

Thank you to the witnesses.

I'm going to start with Professor Cappe.

I think some research here is indicating that over the course of six years, this commission would cost about $120 million, with about $19 million in funding on a go-forward basis.

Do you think that is a reasonable sum of money to stand up and maintain a commission like this?

10:05 a.m.

Professor, School of Public Policy & Governance, University of Toronto, As an Individual

Prof. Mel Cappe

Look, I spent the largest part of my career at Treasury Board, so I should be able to answer that question. Unfortunately, I can't. I have no idea whether or not that's enough.

I think the discussion you've been having around adequacy of funding is legitimate. You need to make sure it is funded enough. You're going to be carrying on the old functions of the CRCC and the new application of this law to CBSA.

It's a good question. I don't have an answer.

10:05 a.m.

Conservative

Dane Lloyd Conservative Sturgeon River—Parkland, AB

You have this background in the civil service, and Treasury Board specifically. Do you anticipate that the downloading of the responsibilities currently taking place internally in the CBSA and RCMP onto this independent review committee will lead to better allocation of resources—or even potential savings—within the CBSA and RCMP, which could offset some of the new costs of standing up a commission like this?