Public Safety Committee on Feb. 10th, 2022

[The Chair, Liberal, Jim Carr]

Good morning, everyone. I call this meeting to order.

Welcome to meeting number seven of the House of Commons Standing Committee on Public Safety and National Security.

Today's meeting is taking place in a hybrid format, pursuant to the House order of November 25, 2021. Members are attending in person in the room and remotely using the Zoom application. The proceedings will be made available via the House of Commons website. So you are aware, the website will always show the person speaking, rather than the entirety of the committee.

For members participating in person, proceed as you usually would when the whole committee is meeting in person in a committee room. Keep in mind the Board of Internal Economy's guidelines for mask use and health protocols.

Before speaking, please wait until I recognize you by name. If you are on the video conference, please click on the microphone icon to unmute yourself. For those in the room, your microphone will be controlled as normal by the proceedings and verification officer. When speaking, please speak slowly and clearly. When you are not speaking, your mike should be on mute. I remind you that all comments by members should be addressed through the chair.

With regard to a speaking list, the committee clerk will advise the chair on whose hands are up, to the best of his ability, and we will do the best we can to maintain a consolidated order of speaking for all members, whether they are participating virtually or in person.

First, I would like to inform members that regarding the committee's study of crowdfunding platforms and extremism financing, and pursuant to the motion adopted by the committee on Tuesday, February 1, GoFundMe has been invited and has accepted the committee's invitation. I can also report that GoFundMe has agreed to appear before this committee on Thursday, March 3, 2022.

Pursuant to the order adopted by the House of Commons on Tuesday, December 7, 2021, and the motion adopted on Tuesday, December 14, 2021, the committee is resuming its study of gun control, illegal arms trafficking and the increase in gun crimes committed by members of street gangs.

We have with us today, by video conference, from the Service de police de l'agglomération de Longueuil, Fady Dagher, director; from Sûreté du Québec, Benoît Dubé, chief inspector, director of criminal investigation; and from the Vancouver Police Department, Michael Rowe, staff sergeant.

Up to five minutes will be given for opening remarks, after which we will proceed with rounds of questions. Witnesses may choose to split their allotted time for opening remarks with other witnesses if they so desire.

Welcome to all.

I now invite Director Dagher to make an opening statement of up to five minutes. The floor is yours.

[Fady Dagher, Director, Service de police de l’agglomération de Longueuil]

Thank you.

I will try to speak in French, and sometimes in English.

Thank you for receiving me.

With respect to current violence and firearms crimes in Quebec, my colleague Benoît Dubé can tell you about the repression aspect. He has extensive expertise in that area. Units have been established, including the one in Longueuil through which my team cooperates with Mr. Dubé.

Today I'm going to talk about police work. I've been a police officer for 30 years, 5 of them as chief of police. The work we do in the municipalities is prevention work.

Way before the crime happens, we work with the community. While children are very young, we work on prevention with them, in the community, along with police officers.

We've noticed that, the more we work with young people, the better we are at preventing problems with key partners. Members of the entire community intervene, not just its police officers.

It takes a village to control a community. It's impossible for the police department to anticipate all the violence that's happening in the community.

I read about your program “Rethink, Refocus, Reintegrate”, which has been financed by the government. I also read about MST, the multisystemic therapy program, and about LRP, the leadership and resiliency program, that you put into force and that are being financed by your government. I think these are great programs, especially with the great indicators to see if they're efficient or not, but there are always some “buts”.

What the police of Longueuil are trying to do is work in the same way. We grow contacts. This is a new approach that we're doing. It's also a new social approach for the police department: to be able to be with the community outside the 911 calls, to be integrated into the community and to be able to anticipate all the violence that is happening.

I can tell you that even in our communities—with a population of around half a million and with a thousand officers—even in some of the very rich areas of Longueuil, there is crime and the young kids have guns inside the schools, inside the lockers. It's incredible how much this is changing the mentality of the young people. They want to protect themselves. It's the first time we've seen such a movement over to violence.

If we're not in the classroom with the kids from a young age, we're only going to be reacting, and the Longueuil police don't want to work that way. We want to suppress this, but we want to work in a proactive way.

I'll stop there. We can discuss this later.

[The Chair, Liberal, Jim Carr]

Thank you very much.

Now I would invite Chief Inspector Dubé to speak to us, with his opening comments of up to five minutes.

Inspector, the floor is yours.

[Benoît Dubé, Chief Inspector, Director Criminal Investigation, Sûreté du Québec]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

First, I'd like to say hello to all the members of the committee and to thank them for the opportunity to appear before the committee today.

My name is Benoît Dubé, and I have been the director of criminal investigation with Sûreté du Québec since 2020. Before that, starting in 2003, I spent most of my career fighting organized crime.

Sûreté du Québec is our provincial police force, which is responsible, in particular, for coordinating the fight against organized crime across Quebec in cooperation with our municipal, indigenous, provincial, national and international partners.

The fight against organized crime and the various types of criminal activity generally associated with it are Sûreté du Québec's priorities and those of our partners.

In 2017, we reviewed the structure of our investigation units so we could take simultaneous and coordinated action at all hierarchical levels of the criminal networks under investigation, the level of the most influential players and the local and regional levels. In our jargon, that's what we call a three-level strategy.

To guide and optimize investigative plan selection, we also attached organized crime intelligence teams directly to our investigation units, thus constituting what we call intelligence-based police services.

In the past two years, we have improved this structure by acquiring additional funding from the federal and provincial governments. In November 2019, thanks to the firearms-related violence and gangs action fund, we established two new teams, one dedicated to firearms manufacturing, importing and trafficking cases and the other to organized-crime-related disappearances and murders.

We are also deploying measures in response to the Quebec government's launch of Operation Centaur. As part of that operation, we have expanded the team detailed to firearms cases, which has become a joint team combining members of Sûreté du Québec, or SQ, the Service de police de la Ville de Montréal, or SPVM, the Royal Canadian Mounted Police, the RCMP, and the Canada Border Services Agency, CBSA. That team is now called the integrated weapons enforcement team, the EILTA, and it is headquartered in the Montreal area. We are also setting up an EILTA in Quebec City together with the Service de police de la Ville de Québec.

The mandate of these teams is to establish cases involving the manufacture, supply and importing of firearms. To strengthen investigation capacity at both local and regional levels, resources have also been added to all our six joint regional squads and local investigation teams, which are scattered across the province.

As part of Operation Centaur, these teams respectively have a mandate to establish simple weapons possession and distribution cases. We are therefore working simultaneously on weapons possession, procurement and distribution, thus implementing our strategy at three levels, as I just mentioned.

The cooperation of our partners is of course essential to ensuring the success of the activities deployed as part of the fight against armed violence. Our various joint investigation teams are backed by the involvement of the RCMP, CBSA, the Ontario Provincial Police, or OPP, and 26 municipal police forces, 7 of which have just joined us as part of Operation Centaur.

Sûreté du Québec is also proceeding with the devolution of resources among the partner organizations, which are the RCMP and its National Weapons Enforcement Support Team, or NWEST, the Ontario Provincial Police's Biker Enforcement Unit, the Akwesasne Mohawk Police Service, in order to step up intelligence exchange, and the U.S. Department of Homeland Security.

I would emphasize that the Quebec government has also announced further investment in various entities taking part in Operation Centaur, including its prosecution branch, the Direction des poursuites criminelles et pénales, and its forensic lab, the Laboratoire des sciences judiciaires et de médecine légale.

As you can see, many measures have been put in place in recent years to step up the fight against organized crime and armed violence.

To give you an idea of the scope of these measures, at Sûreté du Québec, we're talking about a structure that has expanded from 245 police investigative resources to 330 resources, which represents an increase of nearly 35% in barely two years. The addition of all those new resources has inevitably resulted in more operations and arrests.

[The Chair, Liberal, Jim Carr]

Inspector, I'm going to have to ask you to wrap up in the next 10 seconds, please.

[Benoît Dubé]

However, for these achievements to have a significant impact on crime, it is essential that they result in the charging and prosecution of offenders.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Jim Carr]

Thank you very much.

I would now like to invite Staff Sergeant Rowe to take the floor and give his opening remarks for up to five minutes.

Staff Sergeant, please proceed.

[Staff Sergeant Michael Rowe, Staff Sergeant, Vancouver Police Department]

Good morning, everyone. Thank you very much for providing me the opportunity to speak to you all here today.

I'm currently assigned to the organized crime section of the Vancouver Police Department. Since May 2021, I have been in charge of a task force responsible for reducing gang violence within the city of Vancouver. The task force has a mandate to target people and groups involved in the Lower Mainland gang conflict. We also investigate the possession, trafficking and manufacturing of firearms.

We use a combination of proactive and reactive investigations to target those committing gang violence and react to incidents of gang violence in our community. For example, we've developed a protocol that allows us to proactively target gang members who we believe are involved in planning homicides. Since May of last year, this technique has allowed us to disrupt and prevent seven gang-related homicides before they could occur.

The Lower Mainland gang conflict is an ongoing conflict that involves approximately 48 gangs in the Lower Mainland area of British Columbia. These 48 gangs have divided themselves into three factions that are currently in conflict with each other. In 2021, across the region, the Lower Mainland gang conflict resulted in 46 homicides—70% of which were shootings—and 11 non-fatal shootings.

To give some context to the firearms work that the VPD has done, in 2021, the VPD seized or had surrendered over 1,500 firearms and replica firearms. To date in 2022, approximately 76 firearms have been seized or surrendered to the VPD. Since May 2021, the task force has seized over 30 firearms directly related to the gang conflict, six of which have been identified as privately made firearms or “ghost guns”. In 2021, firearm trace requests were submitted by the VPD for 60 investigations. Out of those, 26 firearms were found to have originated in Canada, 21 were found to have originated in the United States and 26 were not able to be traced to a known source.

The VPD also participates in gang violence prevention programs. We refer people involved in the gang conflict to community-based programs that provide support for people to leave gangs before they become the victims of violence. As an example of this, the combined forces special enforcement unit of British Columbia has an “end gang life” program through which they provide support to gang members to attempt to help them leave that lifestyle. The VPD also has two uniformed gang crime unit teams that are tasked with going out and having direct contact with gang members. They create professional relationships with these gang members and attempt to identify suitable candidates for referral to community-based treatment programs.

Based on my experience leading firearms investigations and gang violence investigations, I've identified some current trends that I believe are relevant to the committee.

For example, one of the trends we're seeing out here in Vancouver right now is the use of privately made firearms or “ghost guns”. During the gang conflict, we're seeing more ghost guns, specifically in the hands of people who are involved in active murder conspiracies or people who are believed to be working as hired contract killers. Ghost guns can be 3-D printed or modified from what's called a Polymer80 handgun. Specific styles of high-quality airsoft handguns can also be easily converted into fully functioning firearms. Ghost guns can also be composed of multiple parts from other firearms, resulting in a firearm that has multiple serial numbers on it. All of these factors mean these firearms cannot be traced through traditional systems.

Modern 3-D printing materials can produce a durable firearm, capable of shooting hundreds of rounds without a failure. For example, one of my teams recently completed an investigation in which we executed search warrants on a residential home. Inside this home, we located a sophisticated firearms manufacturing operation capable of producing 3-D printed firearms. They had firearm suppressors and they were completing airsoft conversions—converting airsoft pistols into fully functioning firearms.

Another trend we're dealing with is the use of high-capacity magazines. Magazines are modified to accept more than the lawfully allowed five rounds of ammunition. These magazines allow for more shots to be fired without the user having to pause to reload. High-capacity magazines can be manufactured by altering lawfully purchased magazines, but also through 3-D printing.

We're also noticing a trend with an increase in prohibited firearms accessories. We're seeing a growth in the use and possession of suppressors, which reduce the sound of a shot. Suppressors are prohibited in Canada but can be purchased through the United States, where they're lawfully allowed to be purchased, and then illegally imported into Canada. They can also be obtained through like items, such as an item called a solvent trap, which can be easily converted into a suppressor for a firearm.

Finally, we're noticing that people are manufacturing suppressors from lawfully obtained components, such as basic metals, and using 3-D printers to manufacture parts that are used to suppress the sound of a shot.

[The Chair, Liberal, Jim Carr]

Thank you very much.

If you have a very important thing to say, can you do it in 10 seconds?

[S/Sgt Michael Rowe]

No, I'm good.

[The Chair, Liberal, Jim Carr]

I'm sure there will opportunities during the question period to expand on some of your points.

I'm going to open the floor to questions from members. To open the first round, I'll call upon Mr. Shipley, who will have six minutes.

Sir, the floor is yours.

[Doug Shipley, Conservative, Barrie—Springwater—Oro-Medonte, ON]

Thank you, Chair.

Thank you to all the witnesses for being here today.

My first question is going to be directed towards Mr. Dubé.

Throughout the different meetings of this committee, we have heard from multiple witnesses that the Liberals' firearms buyback program is ineffective in dealing with the root cause of gun violence. We heard it can be quite costly and the resources could be better used elsewhere. Do you believe that the firearms buyback program is an effective tool against gun crimes?

[Benoît Dubé]

What I believe is that you have to consider many aspects. The issue is quite complicated. I'm not saying the government's program hasn't had an impact. It's definitely having one to a certain extent, but I think it's a combination of a number of measures that will produce results.

The program's having an impact, but it's definitely not the only solution to armed violence.

[Doug Shipley, Conservative, Barrie—Springwater—Oro-Medonte, ON]

To follow up on that, what do you think the number one solution could be to combat this issue?

[Benoît Dubé]

I more or less agree with Director Dagher. I don't think there's any single solution. You have to consider prevention, education and repression, and we have to work together on all those aspects. We can't focus on just one in isolation. A combination of measures designed to take action on all those aspects will ultimately have a direct impact on armed violence.

[Doug Shipley, Conservative, Barrie—Springwater—Oro-Medonte, ON]

Thank you for that. I wasn't necessarily saying there was one solution. I was looking for the top priority.

Thank you, Mr. Dubé.

The next question is for Mr. Dagher and Mr. Rowe.

Montreal and Vancouver are close to the U.S. border. We know that illegal firearms being smuggled across the border is the largest source of firearms being used in crime. Of course, this would deviate from city to city across Canada.

How many of the guns used in crimes in your cities are sourced from illegal cross-border smuggled firearms? If you could both respond to that, it would be appreciated.

[Fady Dagher]

In Longueuil, it is not high. We know there are some transactions throughout the territory, but we don't have a main issue with gun control in Longueuil. What we have is with the youth in the community.

What we're increasingly seeing, on the one hand, is youth arming themselves because they're afraid. On the other hand, you have young people who are being paid by organized crime to engage in actual shooting. But is there a lot of firearms trafficking in Longueuil? No.

[Doug Shipley, Conservative, Barrie—Springwater—Oro-Medonte, ON]

Before Mr. Rowe speaks up, I need some clarification, Mr. Dagher.

My question was more about the guns that you're seeing in your community. Where are they coming from? Are they smuggled from the U.S.?

[Fady Dagher]

Yes, they are.

[Doug Shipley, Conservative, Barrie—Springwater—Oro-Medonte, ON]

Thank you.

Mr. Rowe, go ahead.

[S/Sgt Michael Rowe]

Yes, sir. We are also seeing firearms smuggled in from the United States, particularly handguns. The United States is a regular source of handguns in our gang conflicts.

However, another trend we're seeing is the importation of firearms parts from the United States, which are being used to create privately made firearms, or ghost guns. We recently had an importation of 50 Glock barrels and slides. These parts can be lawfully purchased in the United States and shipped without a licence here in Canada. These parts are being used to manufacture the untraceable ghost guns that we see being used in our gang conflicts.

[Doug Shipley, Conservative, Barrie—Springwater—Oro-Medonte, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Rowe.

Your opening remarks about the ghost guns stuck out to me, too. I don't know a lot about guns. I'm learning more throughout this committee. That seems to be a trend that's developing that's concerning to everyone.

Are you seeing that increasing recently, or has this been going on for a while? How are we going to prevent more of these ghost guns? I was shocked to hear some of the numbers you used in your opening remarks.

[S/Sgt Michael Rowe]

Sir, it's going to be very challenging. Ghost guns can be produced using a 3-D printer, and 3-D printers can be purchased lawfully from a variety of stores for as little as $300. The cost of the materials used to produce the firearms, the plastic material that is fed into the printer, can work out to literally dollars per firearm produced.

It's very challenging. Right now, we're actively targeting people who we believe are manufacturing ghost guns, and we're working with our partners in the RCMP and provincially with the CFSEU firearms team and also with NWEST, the national weapons enforcement support team. We're working hard to target people who are importing firearms parts, people involved in the sale of firearms parts, and then attempting to use that information to identify opportunities to take enforcement against ghost gun manufacturing.

[Doug Shipley, Conservative, Barrie—Springwater—Oro-Medonte, ON]

Thank you for that. I think I'm running out of time, so my final question is back to Mr. Dagher.

You mentioned in your opening remarks that your department has tried to make community policing a crucial part of your policing strategy. Has this resulted in a substantive reduction in gang crime or diverted youth away from joining gangs? How effective have your programs been?

[Fady Dagher]

I'm blessed maybe; I don't know. I'm right next to Montreal and next to Laval, two big cities in the province of Quebec. In Montreal—I don't know if Benoît can agree with me—we have over 200 shootings, and in Laval we're at around 50 to 55 shootings in one year. In Longueuil, we have only one.