Public Safety Committee on June 6th, 2023

[Natan Obed]

I don't have that information in front of me. I can task Chris with going to talk to our counterparts at the RCMP and try to give a comprehensive point-in-time answer to this committee.

[Peter Julian, NDP, New Westminster—Burnaby, BC]

Thank you. Yes. I think this is critical. We know how situations can develop. Misunderstandings and mutual incomprehension can have tragic consequences, as you pointed out.

You raised in your presentation the issue of Bill C-20 and mandatory Inuit representation. The scope of Bill C-20 is very small. We're talking about five commissioners. Is it your belief that one of those should be from Inuit communities?

[Natan Obed]

Our starting point is that there would be provisions that would systematically allow for Inuit-specific participation within processes that would create the best possible outcomes for the commission, not necessarily that there would be a need for distinctions-based Inuit, first nations and Métis representatives on the commission itself.

Right now, the closest we have within the text of the legislation is a small window of time in which outside intervenors can provide some sort of intervention. We would like to see specificity that would ensure that Inuit, on issues related to Inuit, would be able to participate throughout.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ron McKinnon]

Thank you, Mr. Julian.

We have a minute and 55 seconds before the vote—I think this timing is a little off—so I propose that we suspend.

I would ask if we have unanimous consent to recommence as soon as everybody has voted, so that we don't have to wait until the vote happens and the 10 minutes and stuff.

Okay. Let us know when you've voted.

We're suspended.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ron McKinnon]

The meeting is resumed.

Thank you to our witnesses for waiting patiently.

We will continue. We will start our second round. We will probably have time for an abbreviated second round, so we'll end after....

I believe Alistair is taking over for Peter.

We'll start this second round with Mr. Motz.

You have five minutes, please.

[Glen Motz, Conservative, Medicine Hat—Cardston—Warner, AB]

Thank you very much, Chair.

Thank you, gentlemen—both sets of witnesses—for being here.

I want to start by saying that unanimous support was mentioned for the concept behind a public complaints commission, the PCRC, but we have concerns. They're serious concerns.

One is that there is a call for independence, yet the current civilian review complaints commission has capacity issues. They have serious capacity issues, and they're looking after only the RCMP. The government has told us that it's going to spend about $18.6 million a year in the first six years, and then about $19.6 million per year following that.

The concern I have is adding the concerns from the public for the entire CBSA on top of what's going on with the RCMP internal complaints and the fact that there is a need—which you've mentioned, Mr. Obed, and I believe Chief Benedict did as well—to have this commission have not only knowledge but also integration with people from your communities.

In order to play that out across the country, you can see that this is going to be a monster for two different organizations. I'm concerned that we might be setting ourselves up for failure.

I would like some feedback from both of you gentlemen on what your thoughts are on that.

[Grand Chief Abram Benedict]

I think, realistically, that there are only so many nations that are exposed to the border and would be crossing the border. In my case, Akwesasne is part of the Haudenosaunee, which spans a certain geographical area, and as you go down the border itself, there are other nations that have historically or still continue to occupy that area.

Acknowledging that there are several nations across Canada and the United States, it's not possible to educate every individual one on these systems. Frankly, a Seminole from deep in Florida is probably not going to be travelling through these areas too much, but will at some point. At the same time, there are some fundamentals that are common among the Haudenosaunee, the Blackfeet and the Seminoles in relation to assertion of rights.

I acknowledge your point, but I think that having none, where the system likely is now, to having some and then progressively moving forward are definitely some initiatives that should be taken.

Frankly, there has to be, somewhere in the federal government, other training that's happening at the same time that probably could support this work as well.

[Glen Motz, Conservative, Medicine Hat—Cardston—Warner, AB]

I just want to clarify that I wasn't talking at all about the need for training. I'm talking about the capacity to deal with even the complaints that come in currently.

Keeping in mind that, when we had officials at our committee from Public Safety and the RCMP, and when we had the minister, they confirmed that the current process, the current practice of having these agencies investigate some of the multitude of more minor complaints, will continue under the PCRC. That's what I was getting at.

Go ahead, Mr. Obed.

[Natan Obed]

We run into this challenge of ambition versus the practical ability to implement across a whole host of different issues with the federal government.

With this piece of legislation, as a group that would potentially benefit from it, we aren't necessarily 100% sure how the funds will be found to use this, but we certainly would have the expectation that our community would be serviced alongside all the other interests. That creates a practical reality in terms of how the government is going to accommodate the different challenges of implementation.

In too many scenarios, there have been good intentions in legislation that is purposely vague, which has ultimately meant that we can't avail ourselves of the benefits of the legislation, and there isn't money to do it anyway.

That is a shared concern, and I hope that focusing on a distinctions-based way of working with indigenous peoples would give us a bit of a placehold that we haven't had before.

On the larger question about financing, I share your concern.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ron McKinnon]

Thank you, Mr. Motz.

We go now to Mr. Noormohamed for five minutes, please.

[Taleeb Noormohamed, Liberal, Vancouver Granville, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair, and thank you to all the witnesses for being with us today.

Grand Chief, I was struck by some of the comments you made about the concerns your community has at the border and the challenges you've had with CBSA. I was reflecting on some of the feedback we've had from Black Canadians, from Muslims and from so many other communities across this country. One thing you talked about was the importance of education, the importance of training. We've heard this theme come up over and over again.

There's one thing I'm really curious about, and I'd love for the two gentlemen who are here with us as well to share their perspectives on this. In order for us to get this right, and to make sure that implementation isn't just a blunt instrument but also a process of education so the system actually ends up working the way we all need it to work, what are some things that you feel we should have top of mind through this process so that the execution around oversight is done in such a way that it brings law enforcement along for the journey in a way that this can be a positive experience for all? Ideally, that's what we would want.

[Grand Chief Abram Benedict]

I can start on that.

I would say that the CBSA specifically, which we have more interactions with than the RCMP, is a young agency. It was an amalgamation of customs and excise, and it had a different function. Over the years since it was formed—I think it was only in 2005, perhaps; it's quite young—it has evolved to what its mandate is. Other agencies that are enforcement agencies have certain mechanisms, accountabilities or legislation that hold either them or the agency accountable in certain ways. Moving towards that definitely, I would say, bolsters their functionality in keeping Canada safe and ensuring they are processing the traffic in a certain way.

When I look at the implementation, it's around the training, the inclusion and the education to make sure the system is going to work. There are other systems that exist for review that are not part of the agency they're reviewing. They exist in Canada.

Frankly, in my community, severe complaints have gone to the Canadian Human Rights Commission. We don't want complaints heading off to the Canadian Human Rights Commission. If we're talking about capacity and being comprehensive and difficult, while it serves a very vital function to Canadians, it is a very difficult and complicated—and can be expensive—process as well. Having an agency such as—

[The Chair, Liberal, Ron McKinnon]

Excuse me, sir, we have to suspend briefly, because we have a technical issue. The clerk has advised me. We will try to hold that thought. We'll start back where we are. Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ron McKinnon]

This meeting is now resumed.

We were in the middle of Mr. Benedict telling us great things.

If you remember where you were, please finish up, and then we'll go back to Mr. Noormohamed.

[Grand Chief Abram Benedict]

We can go back to Mr. Noormohamed. I didn't take note of where I was. Thank you, though.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ron McKinnon]

I apologize for the technical difficulties. I used to be an IT guy, so I take it personally.

Mr. Noormohamed, go ahead, please.

[Taleeb Noormohamed, Liberal, Vancouver Granville, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Mr. Obed, I have a similar question for you. Obviously, your communities have had experience primarily with the RCMP in this regard. It would be great to get your perspective on how to do this in a manner that brings law enforcement along. I think it's really important for us to make sure that it is clear to everyone that oversight is essential and important.

We know that the RCMP are enthusiastically supportive of this, but how do we make sure not only that rank-and-file individuals—who are really on the front lines in this—are able to see the value and the importance of this, but also that we're able to create a process wherein it's a willing engagement in many ways? I think that, ultimately, will hopefully get us to the outcomes we all seek.

[Natan Obed]

We still have a vacuum in data, so we don't necessarily understand the complete picture of complaints in Inuit communities across Inuit Nunangat. We do in Nunavut, because it is a jurisdiction, and there are just Inuit communities in Nunavut. For the Northwest Territories and for Newfoundland and Labrador, we would have no way of understanding how many of those complaints come from Inuit communities in any given year. Those are some of the essential building blocks that we need to change.

As far as compliance and the building of a shared interest are concerned, I think a lot of that has to do with some of the things I've raised already. The nature of policing in Inuit Nunangat and the transactional nature of policing have to change to a more community-focused approach to policing, whereby people have an affiliation with the community beyond their job and a vested interest in building a healthy community alongside all the people who live in it.

That requires more resources. It also requires, sometimes, a shift in attitude about what a person is there to do. I would love to see a more holistic, community-focused RCMP. We've talked to the RCMP, and it shares those sentiments. However, it immediately always comes back to, “We don't have enough people to do that.”

[Taleeb Noormohamed, Liberal, Vancouver Granville, BC]

In the remaining moments I have, I just wonder if you could touch a bit more on this piece around data, because this is something I think is essential. It's hard to make informed decisions if you don't have the type of data required. It's hard to drill into where there might be systemic issues if you don't have data.

How important are these provisions around data collection and utilization in terms of getting to this outcome?

[Natan Obed]

They're essential. We have such small populations that it's so important to understand in an aggregated but Inuit-specific way what issues are Inuit-specific and what issues are from other parts of the population.

We really don't have a good sense of how to approach some of these and how to advocate for particular changes in legislation or particular interventions in our communities—for socio-economic issues, for mental health issues, for policing—if we have just a basic understanding or no understanding of...and can't interpret the data that is already being collected.

We need better access, and we need more Inuit specificity within the data.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ron McKinnon]

Thank you, Mr. Noormohamed.

I now turn the floor over to Ms. Michaud for two and a half minutes.

[Kristina Michaud, Bloc, Avignon—La Mitis—Matane—Matapédia, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

My question is for all the witnesses. Last time, I believe it was my colleague Ms. Damoff who addressed the fact that RCMP reservists would not be subject to this legislation. In fact, people wouldn't be able to file a complaint against a reservist who has abused someone. Contractual workers at the Canada Border Services Agency would be subject to this bill. If we draw a parallel with education, it's as if we've established a system for handling complaints about teachers, but supply teachers who have committed abuses are not subject to it. I don't know what your thoughts are.

Perhaps Mr. Benedict could answer first. Should we make reservists subject to this bill? People seemed to be saying that it was rather complicated because they don't have the same status as RCMP officers. I wonder if we should take a closer look at this.

[Grand Chief Abram Benedict]

I don't have too much to add to that, because we don't have interactions with the RCMP, so a reservist interaction is highly unlikely.

With respect to the Canada Border Services Agency, you're either a BSO under the legislation of the Canada Customs Act, or you're not, so there's not an in-between.

[Natan Obed]

First and foremost, you think about a citizen, a person in the community, and when they see an RCMP officer they don't know the status of that particular person. Therefore, I don't think it would behoove anyone to feel as though they are not protected. How are they going to maintain trust throughout the process if something could be thrown out because—by an asterisk or some technical issue or something they had no idea about—they can't bring a complaint forward?

[Kristina Michaud, Bloc, Avignon—La Mitis—Matane—Matapédia, QC]

Thank you.