Public Safety Committee on June 13th, 2023

[Dr. David Edward-Ooi Poon]

Thank you.

Essentially, I would ask the legislators here to think about this: If, God forbid, that happened with John's family again today, would the system protect Donna McCall? If the answer is “no”, then the bill is not strong enough.

Specifically, then, it would be an urgent way, an escalation to a supervisor or someone who can make that decision, and an immediate turnaround if there's a discrepancy between what the CBSA officer says and what the order in council says. If these things exist to bolster citizens' rights, they'll allow stories like the McCall family's to be prevented.

He sacrificed so that we can do better. I am so grateful that you're taking the time to hear him out.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ron McKinnon]

Thank you, Ms. Michaud.

We'll go now to Mr. Julian.

Please go ahead, Mr. Julian, for six minutes.

[Peter Julian, NDP, New Westminster—Burnaby, BC]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Thank you to our witnesses. I'm saddened by your remarks. We just have to do better as a country.

I want to start with you, Ms. Anderson-Pyrz. You mentioned in your initial comments the importance in the calls for justice of a robust and independent oversight body. Does Bill C-20 achieve that? If not, what needs to change?

[Hilda Anderson-Pyrz]

I have to be honest. We were invited last minute as a witness, so we didn't necessarily have the time to adequately review everything. However, from what we have reviewed, I think there can be gaps, especially when you're looking at who will be represented, how they will be represented and what that independence looks like. It's all really dependent on the different groups you're speaking to. I think it's critical to have diversity at the table. There also needs to be a gender balance. When you look at policing, it was raised that there were issues from coast to coast during the national inquiry into missing and murdered indigenous women and girls and two-spirit and gender-diverse people, and also that the system lacked accountability.

I would need to have a more in-depth review of the bill, and any amendments related to the bill as well, to be able to provide a fulsome response to that. Those are just some of my initial thoughts. Thank you for the opportunity to provide feedback.

[Peter Julian, NDP, New Westminster—Burnaby, BC]

Thank you, and I'm so sorry about the tragic loss of your sister.

Mr. McCall, deepest condolences on the loss of your spouse.

These are tragic stories that underscore the importance of finally getting this done by getting it done right.

We've had previous testimony, Mr. McCall, and I'll ask you and Dr. Poon about the issue of management's not making the right decisions. I think both of your cases strike at poor management, poor integration of what should be clear direction, and also the issue of resources.

Are you concerned that Bill C-20 doesn't yet appropriately encompass the ability to tackle those systemic problems that are so important to resolve?

[John McCall]

I'm concerned about the ability of Bill C-20 to address the urgent needs. I don't think that throwing it to a committee is going to help people who are urgently needing to get to the bedside of a dying family member.

That wasn't my case, though. My case was not an urgent need. My case went from March to August. If anybody could have responded in a couple of months, it would have worked for my own case. However, does Bill C-20 address the urgent needs that are days or hours or weeks? I don't think so. I think we really need a process that not only supports the bigger pictures but also the acute cases that need to be addressed more quickly.

[Dr. David Edward-Ooi Poon]

We've been calling it “Donna's rule”, the idea that in any time—war, trade, COVID, another pandemic—there must be something within, and entrenched within, Canadian policy to never allow the separation of family like what happened to the McCalls. If we are willing to have that discussion, I'd love to have it.

When it comes to Bill C-20 specifically, the idea that there is an evening of the power imbalance between the incoming traveller or immigrant and the CBSA agent.... We believe that a strong, well-resourced and truly transparent—that means stickers at each booth—Bill C-20 will give the strength to those coming in and allow that proper procedures will be followed. This will help a lot of people if done properly.

[Peter Julian, NDP, New Westminster—Burnaby, BC]

Thank you.

I'd like to turn to Dr. Hasan and Madam Abdalla.

You raised a number of key points, one being to ensure that national security isn't a reason simply to not respond to a case, to not hear the complaint.

I have two questions. Do you feel that the PCRC should have the same ability to tackle privileged information as NSIRA does to really effectively do its job? Second, you very eloquently spoke about attacking systemic racism, about zero tolerance for racism and discrimination. Can you offer some direction, some successful pieces of legislation that have accomplished that, perhaps, in other countries?

[Dr. Nadia Hasan]

Yes, in terms of your question around national security, the threshold that we are recommending is top secret clearance. Anything that is below that threshold should be within the purview of the PCRC. That includes access to information that would be needed to do the job effectively.

Again, our recommendations are based on the fact that NSIRA, as we all know, is heavily overburdened in terms of the backlog and the case load, and also on the fact that it is not fair to make people wait that long for complaints that could be dealt with in a much more timely fashion and could be resolved in a much shorter timeline.

The example I gave was of Mr. Elmady and his hearing aids, for example, which would be something that would be very easy to resolve through an effective institution like PCRC that could handle a case that has some intersection with national security concerns.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ron McKinnon]

Thank you, Mr. Julian.

That finishes round one. We'll start round two with Mr. Lloyd. I believe this will have to be an abbreviated round to end following Mr. Julian once again.

Mr. Lloyd, please go ahead for five minutes.

[Dane Lloyd, Conservative, Sturgeon River—Parkland, AB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

As others have said, my condolences for the loss that has been borne by all the witnesses here at the committee.

Specifically for you, Mr. McCall, we've seen, especially during the pandemic, so many families quite unnecessarily separated. It just really brings home the impacts that these have in cases such as yours.

To clarify, if Bill C-20 goes into place and this complaint mechanism is inputted, would that have changed your situation, do you think? If the compassionate leave was not in place as a policy in the first place, you can make the complaints but would it have led to a different outcome?

[John McCall]

Possibly. It may have given us an opportunity to get a different answer.

Keeping in mind that my children are the children of a Canadian-born citizen, their right to Canadian citizenship is by birth, by descent. If they had been able to present their birth certificate and their mother's passport at the border, if we had the opportunity to make that case and we didn't have to wait on the IRCC to confer certification of citizenship on them, then I think, yes, it would have fixed this.

[Dane Lloyd, Conservative, Sturgeon River—Parkland, AB]

Thank you.

This is a question for you, but I'll pose it to the other witnesses as well.

We can set up this complaints mechanism and it could work perfectly. It could work very well, but it's only as good as the knowledge and education about its intricacies of the people who need to use it. I imagine somebody who is not trained in government policies, or a refugee coming from abroad, would maybe not know, or maybe they don't speak English or French as their first native tongue. How are they going to know to make a complaint?

Do you, Mr. David, have any thoughts on ways we can amend the legislation to make an education aspect to ensure that underprivileged groups can know their rights?

[Dr. David Edward-Ooi Poon]

Again, I thank my director of operations, Sean, for this. Part 1, section 9, speaks to education and information about the commission. It is my understanding that there already is a section to get the information out there.

You're asking how we get to the disadvantaged groups. I'm saying very clearly, at Best Buy if they charge you an extra 10 bucks, they have a sticker that says, by law we have to charge you less by 10 bucks or you get it for free. We don't have that at the border for a complaints process where people's lives are being changed.

If in that section, in as many languages as possible, in whatever way we can do, we can operationalize that sticker, that's already one huge part.

The second bit is that there will be advocacy groups like us making sure that those refugees, those recent immigrants, those separated families hear it. If the government makes it very clear on a website, we will get it out there but it must be clear and the CBSA agents cannot say, “No such thing exists. You're banned for 10 years.” That's the fear.

[Dane Lloyd, Conservative, Sturgeon River—Parkland, AB]

Dr. Hasan, are you satisfied with how the legislation lays out the education section? What recommendations would you make if this is amended to serve your constituencies?

[Dr. Nadia Hasan]

I think for anything to be effective, it would need to be implemented with a lot of care. My colleague here has addressed the concerns that I would address the same way. The more education we have, the more transparency there is about the process and the easier it is for your everyday Canadians to navigate.

[Dane Lloyd, Conservative, Sturgeon River—Parkland, AB]

Do you think there should be a legal obligation for CBSA officers to make people aware of their right to complain or do you think that a sticker is good enough?

[Dr. Nadia Hasan]

Obfuscating the process is obviously not something in good faith. Like we've talked about before, there are systemic issues around the ways that we know a lot of Muslims at the border are treated. That disparaging of people for asking for recourse is something that is concerning, and we would want it to be addressed pretty directly.

[Dane Lloyd, Conservative, Sturgeon River—Parkland, AB]

Madam Anderson-Pyrz, what are your thoughts on the same question?

[Hilda Anderson-Pyrz]

I think we really have to focus on accessibility. What is accessible to the average individual who may not have the privilege of being able to file formal complaints? As an example, we have many indigenous people in Canada who live in remote, isolated locations and have had traumatic experiences with police officers through police brutality and systemic and structural racism. We have to look at how we are going to provide those opportunities for accessibility. What does that look like?

It looks very different from someone sitting in a place of privilege compared to a lot of us in the general population who often fear systems and structures because of the violence we have experienced through racism. When I look at it, when I say “accessibility”, it has to be safe. It has to provide opportunities like what one witness shared about the different languages.

There also has to be funding made available to different organizations that can support filing these complaints through independence. It's often us volunteers who try to champion change. Many volunteers are doing this in addition to carrying out their work-related responsibilities. It's often on a volunteer basis. We need to ensure that there are equitable, funded mechanisms to be able to support individuals who want to share their story of injustice, and to have the appropriate actions taken to create systems that are responsive and respectful as well.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ron McKinnon]

Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Lloyd.

We'll go now to Mr. Chiang.

Mr. Chiang, go ahead, please, for five minutes.

[Paul Chiang, Liberal, Markham—Unionville, ON]

Thank you, Chair.

Thank you to the witnesses for being here with us today. I will echo the same sentiment, Mr. McCall, about your family. My condolences to your family. Hopefully we can improve the system so that no one else has to go through what you have gone through in your life.

My question is directed to Dr. Hasan.

I just want to expand on what Mr. Lloyd has asked you in regard to public education, if you could expand on that.

How would you view it for different ethnic groups, people of colour or women? How would you look at public education? How can we improve on that? What would you say we should do better?

[Dr. Nadia Hasan]

I think, at a minimum, not obfuscating the process and not denying people legitimate information is important. I'm happy to connect with either of your offices to send further information about what we think might be best practices, especially around serving the Muslim community at the borders.

[Paul Chiang, Liberal, Markham—Unionville, ON]

If you could send your information to the chair of the committee, we will be happy to look at that.

My question is for Mrs. Anderson-Pyrz

As someone who interacts with family members of indigenous women who are missing or murdered, can you speak to the need for cultural competencies in the handling of complaints that may involve serious wrong-doings on the part of law enforcement?

[Hilda Anderson-Pyrz]

Absolutely.

As I think you know, it's really critical that there's representation there—someone who understands the effects of systems that have impacted us as indigenous people. Look at Indian residential schools, the sixties scoop, the child welfare system or MMIWG2S+. We've been impacted by so many systems. We have to ensure that we inform a culturally appropriate lens and trauma-informed approach.

It's also rooted in indigenous ways of knowing, being and doing. When I say that, I mean that we have to ensure the spaces feel safe to us as indigenous people and that the services provided are culturally appropriate as well.

We may have a ceremony attached to the individual who is filing the complaint so that we are adequately taking care of their well-being, their emotional and spiritual well-being, as well as creating that opportunity for healing. It's very traumatic when you think you are seeking supports and resources that are safe for you but have a negative experience. You know, it really impacts your life, and your trust of systems as well. We have to look at how we build those. They have to be independent of any political or government structure, and led by indigenous people.