Evidence of meeting #72 for Public Safety and National Security in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was investigations.
A recording is available from Parliament.
4:10 p.m.
Liberal
June 13th, 2023 / 4:10 p.m.
The Clerk of the Committee Mr. Simon Larouche
His name was submitted by the Liberals.
4:10 p.m.
Conservative
Doug Shipley Conservative Barrie—Springwater—Oro-Medonte, ON
Thank you.
The reason I say that.... I'm not doing it to be glib. I'm doing this so that no one thinks I'm doing some type of a political attack job here, as you weren't our witness.
Sir, we did a little research. You've been involved in this case for quite some time, and I commend you for all the work you've done on it in the past. Back in 2021, you were so frustrated with the system that you actually decided to run against Minister Blair as an independent because he refused to meet with you for 18 months regarding border restrictions and CBSA oversight.
Your exact quote from the Toronto Star was, “If it takes me running an entire campaign just to be able to speak to Bill Blair face to face, that shows how absurd the system is, that a person needs to run a federal election campaign just to speak to the man who needs to be accountable for those actions.”
I'd love to give you a bit of time here to expand on that and tell me about the frustrations you must have obviously gone through, because I know how much it is to put your name out and run. Go ahead, sir.
4:10 p.m.
Founder, Faces of Advocacy
Thank you.
If I can offer a bit of my time...the people who have helped with the exemptions I'm so grateful to. There are many in this room who did help us, but there were many who did not offer us the time that I thought was appropriate given the circumstances.
Mr. McCall's wife, a nurse in Canada, died saying goodbye to her children through FaceTime, this from a system that did not care to give them more than a form letter. At the time, Minister Blair was the Minister of Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness. I ran that campaign asking him to just call John. That was in 2021. We asked him in 2020. Now it's 2023.
Yes, it was absurd that I had to run as an independent—not partisan—just to get that attention and that discussion, and I once again bring you John McCall, driving all the way in from his retired wonderful life in Madoc, to get a little face time and the small modicum of respect that a man deserves after suffering so much. His example allowed a family to reunite in Canada when their sister was dying because of the example he and Donna put together.
Yes, I do big things, but that's in honour of and as advocates for Donna. That's why we're here today.
4:10 p.m.
Conservative
Doug Shipley Conservative Barrie—Springwater—Oro-Medonte, ON
Thank you for that.
Mr. McCall, would you like to add anything to that?
4:10 p.m.
John McCall Member, Faces of Advocacy
Yes, only that when I started this effort to try to get my children into Canada so they could be with us, my wife wasn't in imminent danger of death. She needed a liver transplant. I started out by writing to the Prime Minister and asking for some kind of exemption or consideration that might allow them to be with us together as a family before she got seriously ill and before she needed a transplant, before the transplant process took place. Her condition continued to deteriorate.
The original email that was sent to the Prime Minister was forwarded to Mr. Blair's office, who then made no response whatsoever there. I also wrote to Mr. Blair's office myself, asking for a response and, again, no response whatsoever there.... I also wrote to Minister Hajdu's office. I did get a response from them, when Dr. Njoo wrote back to me and said that Canada has no compassionate exemption. At that point, my wife deteriorated even further, and ultimately she died unexpectedly.
That went from March to August.
4:10 p.m.
Conservative
Doug Shipley Conservative Barrie—Springwater—Oro-Medonte, ON
Obviously, we are very sorry for what you've been through and sorry to hear about your loss.
Since the reintroduction of Bill C-20, have you been able to speak to the current Minister of Public Safety?
The question is to either one of you.
4:10 p.m.
Founder, Faces of Advocacy
The current Minister of Public Safety, Marco Mendicino, or the previous minister Bill Blair, have not spoken to us. We have reached out many times.
4:10 p.m.
Conservative
Doug Shipley Conservative Barrie—Springwater—Oro-Medonte, ON
Thank you.
My next question will be for Mrs. Anderson-Pyrz.
Recently, President Natan Obed and Grand Chief Abram Benedict testified at this committee. They noted that the theory of police investigating police may lead to issues of a lack of confidence in the system. Do you agree with that assessment?
4:10 p.m.
Chair, National Family and Survivors Circle
Yes, I do. I think it has to be completely independent.
Through the loss of my sister, I experienced filing a complaint with the public complaints commission, and I didn't find that it was independent. It's difficult for individuals to investigate themselves.
When the letter was provided to my family that there was no negligence of duty related to the investigation into my sister's death, it created further harm. It was heartbreaking for our family to read that the investigative body was the RCMP and they investigated themselves.
We knew right from the beginning that there was a negligence of duty into the investigation of how my sister died. It created further harm for my family to know that individuals were able to investigate themselves and to report on the outcome.
4:15 p.m.
Liberal
4:15 p.m.
Liberal
Taleeb Noormohamed Liberal Vancouver Granville, BC
Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.
I want to start by thanking all the witnesses.
Mr. McCall, I want to express, on my part, and I think on behalf of all of us here, our sincere regret for what you and your family went through. It's not okay. We can't change that, and we can't turn back the clock, but I do want to say that I was really sorry to hear what happened to you and your family.
Hopefully, through this process, we can make things better for others.
4:15 p.m.
Liberal
Taleeb Noormohamed Liberal Vancouver Granville, BC
I want to start by digging in a bit, Dr. Hasan, and talking about the broader challenges that a number of families from Egypt have faced in Vancouver.
You and Ms. Abdalla are no doubt familiar with these challenges with CBSA guards who have been exercising a degree of authority of interpreting policies that perhaps may or may not have been in existence. This has created consequences for a large number of these Egyptian families who have been deemed inadmissible, with no ability for a process of recourse or, in particular, even being able to look into this with, obviously, the lack of oversight.
Where we are today, how would we actually ensure that doesn't happen again? How do we make sure that, in getting this bill right, those types of challenges don't happen again?
4:15 p.m.
Chief Operating Officer, National Council of Canadian Muslims
The reality is that there are many more, in addition to the families you are referring to, who have had that experience. Sadly, the experience of crossing borders while Muslim is an experience that a lot of people are far too familiar with in the Muslim community.
Globally, and across Canada, it's unfortunate that it has now become a recognizable phenomena that people can actually be characterized in particular ways. It includes things like people feeling a lack of dignity and feeling fear and anxiety while coming to a place like Canada, which is supposed to be a multicultural society that is welcoming and a global guardian of human rights.
You're absolutely right that this is a problem. The fact that it is such a widespread problem, and the fact that we see it as such a common experience among Muslim communities and others, really points to the fact there are systemic issues here that need to be addressed. They need to be addressed appropriately. They need to be addressed with the proper resourcing and with the proper focus on organizational culture. We see problems, as my colleague, Fatema, referred to, in the types of references and the politics of citations within the decisions that CBSA agents make.
That is far too much power, with very little integrity in the type of knowledge being used, to make the kinds of claims they're making about these families. I do think there is a systemic solution needed here.
4:15 p.m.
Liberal
Taleeb Noormohamed Liberal Vancouver Granville, BC
Let's dig into that a bit.
With a name like mine, I can tell you that I have been through precisely what you've talked about. There are moments when you ask yourself, “With a name like mine and a faith like mine, why should my experience be any different?”
I think there is a really important role for us to play—I've asked this in the past, and I'm going to ask it of you—in making sure that we actually make this an experience and make the whole question of oversight something that is embraced by individuals on the front line, particularly at CBSA. I am really keen to do whatever we can to ensure that, when this is implemented, it is implemented in such a way that it brings people along, rather than drags them along. I think it's really important for us to do this in a way that allows people to feel like they are part of a solution.
I would ask you what the things are systemically that need to happen such that those individuals who are on the front lines at CBSA.... I want to be very clear that it's not everybody. It's not an “everybody” problem. These are issues in the system that we need to deal with.
How do we make sure that those individuals have the training, the support and the awareness that are required to ensure that they aren't going down this road, whether wittingly or unwittingly, of treating Muslims or others from racialized communities differently?
4:20 p.m.
Chief Operating Officer, National Council of Canadian Muslims
I think you're absolutely right. In an ideal world, we have everybody on board in addressing systemic racism and addressing Islamophobia within our systems in clear and direct ways, but I want to put a caveat on that. I think the existence of this body is also meant to be something that ensures a level of fairness, equity and justice, regardless of whether people are coming along for the ride. It is, I think, really important that we talk about those two things.
However, I think you're absolutely right. There's a systemic problem and it needs systemic solutions. That means everyone needs to be participating in solving the problem.
4:20 p.m.
Liberal
Taleeb Noormohamed Liberal Vancouver Granville, BC
I am going to give those 18 seconds back.
Thank you very much to all of you.
4:20 p.m.
Bloc
Kristina Michaud Bloc Avignon—La Mitis—Matane—Matapédia, QC
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
I thank the witnesses for being here today.
Dr. Poon, I'm pleased to see you again. We met virtually a few times during the pandemic. Thank you for the work you do for all your members.
Mr. McCall, I offer you my most sincere condolences for what you went through.
I would like you to give me some real examples of what would have happened if, during the pandemic, there had been an entity or commission to process public complaints about the Border Services Agency.
Do you think that some people would have used it or filed a complaint because they were dissatisfied with their treatment by a border services officer?
Could you talk about specific cases or situations your members shared with you?
Could you also tell us about the usefulness of setting up this type of independent entity?
4:20 p.m.
Founder, Faces of Advocacy
Thank you very much.
I'm sorry I don't speak French.
Faces of Advocacy at the time acted as the intermediary when complaints were coming in. When we won our exemptions—we very clearly and publicly won our exemptions—it was on the website, right next to the order in council where extended family compassionate exemptions came in. The day of, I wrote a letter for every single member. It said, “Bring this with you, because we don't trust the CBSA to believe you.” The fact is, they didn't. They could look up who I was and they could look up our exemptions, but our members were told the day of, “Oh, there's no such exemption. You can't bring in your family. You guys are liars.”
If there was a sticker that said, “Hey, if you're being mistreated by the CBSA” in both English and French, they would be empowered to say, “Okay, buddy, give me your badge number. I'm going to go to this complaints office. They have a two-week turnaround, and this is what we're going to do.”
We, a group of nobodies, were hearing these complaints and doing the best we could, and thank goodness a number of agents read the rules. However, for those who didn't and for those who were outside the scope of where they should be practising, that really harmed a number of people.
Now add that to the fact that a CBSA agent can arbitrarily deny someone at the border for the future as well. How scared are we? How terrified are we that we have to enter and risk never seeing our loved ones again?
We need Bill C-20 to be effective.
Thank you.
4:20 p.m.
Bloc
Kristina Michaud Bloc Avignon—La Mitis—Matane—Matapédia, QC
You did in fact publish some posts on your Facebook page in favour of Bill C‑20. I don't know if you read it; the bill is rather lengthy. I say that, but I have not yet seen a lot of bills during my career. Nonetheless, we just did Bill C‑21, which was shorter, but more litigious. This time, all parties seem to agree on the importance of setting up this type of entity. However, there are a lot of details in the bill that could, if they are actually applied, lead to a lot of bureaucracy. I don't know if there are concerns about the timeline for applicants, those who will file a complaint.
Do you have any concerns in that regard? Should we try to ensure that it's easier and that people get answers faster?
If you have any comments on that, I'm quite ready to hear them.
4:25 p.m.
Founder, Faces of Advocacy
I'd like to publicly thank my director of operations, Sean Dillon, who read through that big pile of papers to make sure we understood it well.
In part 1, there is talk about joint timelines being created between the commission and the CBSA and RCMP. The issue here is that, if the timeline is made by both, that could mean the CBSA and RCMP, who have historically done this, could delay and kick the can down the road.
Are we afraid? Absolutely, but we're thankful—hopefully, the third time is the charm for this bill—that something is going to happen where it will be clearly labelled for regular people to know what their rights are and to know what they can do. Hopefully, creating this spotlight will no longer allow agents to work in the dark and do things that are inappropriate—or worse, do outright lies and misinformation.
That's our fear, which I believe SECU can help put some hope toward today.
4:25 p.m.
Bloc
Kristina Michaud Bloc Avignon—La Mitis—Matane—Matapédia, QC
Thank you.
The committee received several briefs from organizations that made recommendations for small changes here and there in the bill.
For example, they pointed out the fact that the person presiding over the commission cannot decide to review a complaint on their own. The minister or complainant has to ask them to do so once it's gone through the RCMP's commission.
Do you have any changes like that to suggest? We are a little pressed for time. We're starting clause-by-clause study of the bill next week. That means we are preparing amendments now. If changes seem warranted to you, and you want to suggest some, I'll give you the floor.
