Public Safety Committee on June 13th, 2023

[Peter Julian, NDP, New Westminster—Burnaby, BC]

Thank you very much. I'm sorry, but I have other questions to ask.

Mr. Tessler, one of the issues and concerns that have been raised is the lack of resources actually budgeted for this new complaints commission. Given the rise in the number of complaints, it is very clear, from the testimony we've had, that the funding is wholly inadequate.

I'm interested in the funding that exists in Manitoba. You mentioned 500 notifications. Those are not complaints from the public.

Are these notifications coming through local police authorities?

[Zane Tessler]

That is correct.

[Peter Julian, NDP, New Westminster—Burnaby, BC]

Is that over a 10-year period?

[Zane Tessler]

It's eight years.

[Peter Julian, NDP, New Westminster—Burnaby, BC]

The public cannot raise complaints that go to the independent investigation unit.

[Zane Tessler]

That is correct.

[Peter Julian, NDP, New Westminster—Burnaby, BC]

With those 500 notifications, would it be fair to say you have had 500 investigations?

[Zane Tessler]

It's been probably in excess of 400 investigations.

As Greg mentioned during his discussions, Manitoba, like the Saskatchewan operation, also has the ability to monitor investigations. We have the ability to be the direct lead investigation body in a majority of cases, but on the discretionary matters, or things less than serious injuries, certain types of Criminal Code or other statutory violations, we may assume a monitor role to provide that degree of oversight as well. About 80% of our notifications do result in investigations led by our unit.

[Peter Julian, NDP, New Westminster—Burnaby, BC]

What is your overall budget? How many investigators do you have? Are they permanent, or are they seconded to you?

[Zane Tessler]

Currently, all of our investigative staff are full-time employees of IIU. We have eight senior investigators, two team commanders or supervisors, and a director of investigations who oversees that end of the operations. In the end, all of the investigators are under my sole and direct supervision.

[Peter Julian, NDP, New Westminster—Burnaby, BC]

What is your budget?

[Zane Tessler]

Our budget is currently $2.8 million.

[Peter Julian, NDP, New Westminster—Burnaby, BC]

Okay. Really, in terms of notifications over eight years, you're talking about 50 investigations a year on average with a $2.8 million budget—

[Zane Tessler]

Yes.

[Peter Julian, NDP, New Westminster—Burnaby, BC]

—and we are talking about potentially up to 10,000 investigations through the CBSA and RCMP with a $19-million budget. I just don't see that budget having any relationship with reality.

[Zane Tessler]

Any operation that is to provide an independent oversight role has to be properly funded and properly resourced. It is so easy to have your resources outstripped by the matters that come before it.

We have no control as to when we're going to deploy or become involved in an investigation. It happens when it happens. Our team has to respond immediately, regardless of where in the province of Manitoba the event occurs. We have to be there with the same degree of dispatch as you would in downtown Winnipeg. It's so easy to lose your resources if you don't have sufficient ability to maintain them.

[Peter Julian, NDP, New Westminster—Burnaby, BC]

Yes, by a quick calculation, the federal complaints commission would have about six times your budget but about 200 times the volume of complaints.

Does that sound realistic to you at all?

[Zane Tessler]

Not in the least....

[Peter Julian, NDP, New Westminster—Burnaby, BC]

Yes, this is a major problem.

If the chair is a little flexible, I would like to ask the same question of our guest from Saskatchewan.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ron McKinnon]

Everyone else had almost seven minutes, so go ahead.

[Greg Gudelot]

The only distinction I would make when answering that question, though, is that we can't equate a complaints investigation with a serious incident investigation. A serious incident investigation is for cases that result in a death—a homicide investigation. It's conducted in accordance with the principles of major case management. It is conducted by major crimes investigators or independent investigators operating with very much the same skill set as major crimes investigators.

That's not to diminish what a complaints investigation is, but complaints investigations are approached and resourced differently. To take that 10,000 number and say that it equates to 10,000 serious incident investigations is probably not an accurate comparison.

In terms of the overall point or overall principle, effective civilian oversight does need to be appropriately resourced. Whatever that number happens to be, depending on what the individual requirements of those 10,000 files are or those 50 files are, you have to be able to meet the public expectation, even with flexibility built into our act in terms of how we respond on the serious incident side or how Zane can monitor with his IIU program.

Even with flexibility built in, I think that one of the observations you'll see over time as you grow a civilian oversight program is that expectations start to run toward the top of that engagement list. Even though you have the ability to observe a police service's own investigation or review a police service's investigation, when you build the civilian oversight unit, the expectation of the public will rapidly become that your unit will conduct that investigation and that it will be an independent investigation rather than one simply monitored or reviewed.

Building in an engagement list like that can help mitigate some of those resource concerns. At the end of the day, the public expectation and the need to develop and build public confidence are always going to require your pushing towards the top of that list.

Will I ever say that there are enough resources? There are never enough resources. You can always do more. You can always take more files and raise them up in that engagement list, but it is a zero-sum game, and it's a pool. You're playing with finite resources and significant demands in terms of public expectations.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ron McKinnon]

Thank you. I think we need to cut it off right there.

We have very little time left. I'm wondering if the committee is interested in a lightning round of two minutes per party.

I'm not seeing a lot of interest in that.

[Raquel Dancho, Conservative, Kildonan—St. Paul, MB]

We can try if you want. Chair, I'm fine to try.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ron McKinnon]

Let's try that, starting with Mr. Motz.

Mr. Motz has to leave as soon as he asks his question. I've undertaken that we won't do any substantive votes once he's gone, although that's a good opportunity.

You have two minutes, please, sir.

[Glen Motz, Conservative, Medicine Hat—Cardston—Warner, AB]

Thank you, Chair.

Thank you, gentlemen, for being here.

Mr. Julian took a lot of the line of questioning I wanted. It was great testimony. I really appreciate it.

For me to sum up, we would be naive to believe that a PCRC is going to investigate every complaint that comes into them about either the CBSA or the RCMP. We know that. It would be reasonable to also suggest that, for those minor complaints, a threshold would have to be determined as to what a minor complaint is and what gets passed on and will be investigated by the agency.

My concern is that, as has been mentioned—I've asked several witnesses this over several panels—the funding. It's not enough. The PCRC is set up now to deal with the RCMP, a modified version of what they have currently but now we've added the CBSA.

Dr. Leuprecht, do you think we're going to be able to make things work as indicated in the legislation by adding the CBSA? You talked about organizational change already occurring. Is that enough with the expectations the public has and the right balance we have to strike?