Public Safety Committee on Feb. 15th, 2022

[Richard Miller]

That is correct.

[Ron McKinnon, Liberal, Coquitlam—Port Coquitlam, BC]

How do we best stifle this black market trade?

[Richard Miller]

The black market trade itself is something where I feel best we need to educate. Education plays a big role. Unless you give individuals the opportunity to succeed and give them other resources, we're still in the same boat. It comes down to the education.

One thing that we particularly focus on is the education piece for these individuals. The choices and the consequences that they'll be looking for in going down that path. If we are able to catch them at a younger age, then we're able to program their mind and give them these resources that are available to them.

When I hear a young man say, “You're telling me I can go into the union and be making $30 an hour? We've never had anyone come here and show us that”.... Now they have another resource available that they never knew about. They can make healthy choices.

[Ron McKinnon, Liberal, Coquitlam—Port Coquitlam, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Miller.

I believe that's my time, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Jim Carr]

Well, you have 30 seconds, if you would like to use it. If not, we'll move on.

[Ron McKinnon, Liberal, Coquitlam—Port Coquitlam, BC]

We can move on. Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Jim Carr]

Okay.

Then I would like to ask Ms. Michaud to take the microphone. She has six minutes.

The floor is yours. Please proceed.

[Kristina Michaud, Bloc, Avignon—La Mitis—Matane—Matapédia, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I thank the witnesses for being here with us today. We are grateful to all of them.

Ms. Fox, I offer my deepest condolences for the loss of your son. Thank you for your commitment, for your fight. You said in your opening statement that you had educated yourself on the matter and are trying to change things. That's extremely laudable.

I can't help but come back to a point you raised earlier. You said that the federal government wants to shift responsibility for banning hand guns to municipalities and provinces. You think that's not a good idea, and I don't think so either. In my opinion, this falls under the federal government's responsibility, and it lacks some political courage because of pressure applied by the firearms lobby.

If municipalities were to take over responsibility for regulating this sector, it would be pretty problematic. In my riding, there are 56 municipalities. Imagine the headache if regulations were different from one municipality to the next. It would be the same thing for the provinces. Some are more inclined than others to legislate, and others have no inclination whatsoever to ban hand guns.

I'd like to have your opinion on the matter.

What should the real solution be?

Do you think it's the federal government's responsibility to ban hand guns?

[Evelyn Fox]

Yes. If there was to be a ban implemented, it would most definitely have to be a federal ban. Copping out to the provinces and municipalities isn't going to do anything. We have people who travel back and forth. We have people on Canada-wide warrants who travel from province to province to province without detection. The municipalities and provinces don't have border control. There is no way to regulate that, and we see how it works in the States: It doesn't work. It's not right to try to make the municipalities and provinces responsible for that. That is a federal issue that needs to be governed by the federal government.

[Kristina Michaud, Bloc, Avignon—La Mitis—Matane—Matapédia, QC]

Thank you for your answer, Ms. Fox.

I understand that you're especially committed to fighting gangs and illegal weapons.

Nonetheless, I'd like to ask what you think about gun violence, for example in the cases of homicide committed by an intimate partner, mass shootings or suicides.

I understand your reticence when it comes to the weapons buy-back program. However, is it fair to think that the federal government should tackle these problems as well? Should it also tackle the issue of owners of an illegal firearm or a weapon that's been on the illegal weapons list since May 2020, if memory serves, or even owners of firearms not on the list, but similar to one on it?

Which measures do you think the federal government should take?

[Evelyn Fox]

As I said previously, for every act of violence, whether it's suicide or a mass shooting, whatever the case may be, there is always an intervention point. That person has been failed by whomever, whether it's the person closest to them, a service provider or even those whose job it is to ensure that person's safety. They have failed in intervening.

I don't think that a gun ban against legal owners is the right solution. We also know, as I said, that only 10% of the references for the PAL licence to own a firearm are checked. Why is that? If we have an issue with domestic violence, a woman is concerned for her safety and her partner has a firearm, why would all the references not be checked? Why would they not be checked to get the licence and to renew the licence?

If the partner signs the application, that's deemed as their consent and they're not even contacted to get feedback. I'm surprised, actually, that it is this way considering we're so homed in on firearm regulation. Why is it that those references are not 100% checked? What I was informed of in the safety course is that those references would all be checked to ensure that I was a safe enough person to attain that licence.

[Kristina Michaud, Bloc, Avignon—La Mitis—Matane—Matapédia, QC]

I agree with you on that.

Bill C‑71 and corresponding regulations are not clear about the verification process, and it is difficult to determine if it's well done or if all of the details that allow a person to obtain a firearm are checked.

I'd like to touch on another subject.

You've fought for a community approach instead of putting massive funds into law enforcement.

In your opinion, what do urban communities need to prevent criminal activity?

[Evelyn Fox]

I think that not so much funding into the police.... The police are a reactive response; they are not a proactive response. I think that programs like Marcell Wilson's with the One by One Movement, which does gang intervention.... I think that trauma support is a major factor, because once you have experienced the homicide of a loved one, you literally lose your mind. It is the most horrible experience I have ever had in my life, and I will never be the same person I once was. I had thoughts of suicide [Technical difficulty—Editor] my son going out of control [Technical difficulty—Editor] to get involved. I couldn't function. People have to leave their jobs because they can't function anymore. People see their other children spiralling out of control, and they don't have what it takes to intervene.

The cycle of violence is very real and very serious. We need to address the root causes. That is what needs to be done. We've had person after person in this forum speak about it, and for 14 years have had the same community leaders speaking about the same thing. And still, it's the voices of the people in anomalous situations who are not affected by the everyday violence that are heard over the people who live this day to day. It's extremely frustrating, but that's what needs to happen. The social determinants of health and the root causes, that is where it lies; and if we had done it 14 years ago, we would not be in this place today.

[Kristina Michaud, Bloc, Avignon—La Mitis—Matane—Matapédia, QC]

Thank you very much, Ms. Fox.

I think that my time to speak is up.

I don't see the chair onscreen anymore. I think we're having a technical problem.

[Pam Damoff, Liberal, Oakville North—Burlington, ON]

Clerk, did we lose our chair?

[Kristina Michaud, Bloc, Avignon—La Mitis—Matane—Matapédia, QC]

The clerk seems to be on the phone.

[Tako Van Popta, Conservative, Langley—Aldergrove, BC]

We lost the clerk, too, Pam.

[The Clerk]

We lost the chair for a moment. He will be reconnected. One of the vice-chairs can take over. Mr. Lloyd, no, actually Ms.—

[Dane Lloyd, Conservative, Sturgeon River—Parkland, AB]

I'll just move in here and give the time to Mr. MacGregor.

[The Clerk]

Ms. Michaud, can you take over the role of chair?

[The Vice-Chair, Bloc, Kristina Michaud]

I will do so with great pleasure.

I think that we were at Mr. MacGregor.

Mr. MacGregor, you have the floor for six minutes.

[Alistair MacGregor, NDP, Cowichan—Malahat—Langford, BC]

Thank you, Madam Chair. It's nice to see you in that role.

With apologies to Mr. Miller and Ms. Fox—I appreciate their testimony—I need to take my time to move a motion that I gave notice to the committee on. Everyone had notice on Friday.

Madam Chair, the motion I'm moving reads as follows:

That the committee invite the Minister of Public Safety and department officials from both the Royal Canadian Mounted Police and Canada Border Services Agency to appear as soon as possible before the committee to answer questions regarding the occupation of Ottawa and the federal government's response to convoy blockades disrupting our borders, notably in Windsor, Ontario; Emerson, Manitoba; and Coutts, Alberta.

I don't want to spend a lot of time on this. I am open to interpretation on what “as soon as possible” means, and I'm happy to have that conversation with colleagues off-line, but I'll just keep it at that. The motion's been moved, and I invite comments from my colleagues.

Thank you.

[The Vice-Chair, Bloc, Kristina Michaud]

Thank you, Mr. MacGregor.

The clerk confirmed that we can now debate this motion.

Ms. Damoff, you have the floor.

[Pam Damoff, Liberal, Oakville North—Burlington, ON]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

I want to thank my colleague for bringing this motion forward. I think we all want to get some answers about what has been transpiring.

I am going to propose an amendment, and I hope it's acceptable to the mover and the committee. We have a broader study where we can do a deeper dive on this. My Liberal colleague brought it forward last week, I think it was.

Since Mr. MacGregor provided this motion, the Emergencies Act has been invoked, and part of that act legislates a parliamentary review committee to review the actions under the act. In addition, the agencies named in this motion, rightly so, are focused on the emergency that is transpiring across our country right now.

I would propose that the motion be amended after “as soon as possible”, by adding the words “following the revocation or expiry of the emergencies act”.

In that way, we would be able to get answers from these agencies. The emergency is happening while we're speaking, and they will not be at liberty to talk about what's happening operationally. So basically it would be that the groups and the minister named in the member's motion would come as soon as possible after the the Emergencies Act expires.

[The Vice-Chair, Bloc, Kristina Michaud]

Thank you, Ms. Damoff.

I saw a hand up, but I don't know if it's Mr. Lloyd's or Mr. Noormohamed's.

I give you the floor, Mr. Lloyd, in the interest of fairness.