Public Safety Committee on Feb. 17th, 2022

[Taleeb Noormohamed, Liberal, Vancouver Granville, BC]

If this is something the average person likes.... I'm trying to understand. What is the motivation for creating a weapon that is functionally the same as the non-restricted version of an AR-15, which is probably the assault rifle most used thus far in mass shootings in the U.S.?

[Matthew Hipwell]

That is in the U.S. You used U.S. statistics. We live in Canada.

[Taleeb Noormohamed, Liberal, Vancouver Granville, BC]

I'm aware of that. My question is, why would you want to create a weapon that is functionally the same as an AR-15 and provide a legal means for people to obtain it?

[Matthew Hipwell]

The base platform for this firearm was already designed. It wasn't something new. It's based off a non-restricted firearm that is already in the Canadian market.

[The Chair, Liberal, Jim Carr]

Okay, thank you very much. We're out of time; I'm sorry. I'm always apologizing for being out of time. That's the way it is.

Next up is either Ms. Michaud or Monsieur Lemire. I have both names on the list, so whoever wants to go next, you're up.

[Sébastien Lemire, Bloc, Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC]

I will be speaking. Thank you, Mr. Chair.

My question is for Mr. Bertrand.

First, I want to thank you for your testimony. I also want to thank the SPVM for the work they do on a daily basis. Having worked in the borough of Mercier—Hochelaga‑Maisonneuve and lived in Montreal for 13 years, I can only commend your work, especially in the current situation.

I'd like to highlight the three requests you've made to the federal government in the current context: you have asked it to pass legislation banning handguns, to enhance monitoring at the border and investigations into firearms smuggling tactics, and to bring the issue of minimum sentences in certain gun usage and possession situations back to the forefront?

Is that correct?

[David Bertrand]

Yes, that's correct.

[Sébastien Lemire, Bloc, Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC]

I felt it was important to reiterate the requests, so that they are well documented.

I would be especially interested in hearing about your work with other police forces. As chief inspector of the SPVM, do you feel that there is currently sufficient communication and cooperation between the various police forces, which include the Canada Border Services Agency and the RCMP, to combat gun trafficking?

[David Bertrand]

I would tell you that, at the moment, we are working very well together. We talk to each other on a daily basis. SPVM members on secondment are part of integrated teams including people from the Sûreté du Québec, the RCMP and the CBSA.

Communication is also excellent. We have set up forms for exchanging information. All those leading investigations can talk about their cases there. We also exchange expertise in the field as investigators share information. This happens on a daily basis. Information is flowing very smoothly between the various policing agencies.

At least that's the case in Quebec. As you know, Operation Centaur was launched a few months ago, and I can tell you it really works well.

[Sébastien Lemire, Bloc, Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC]

The government set up a Canada-U.S. bilateral task force in the spring of 2021. Are you satisfied with what it has done so far? What expertise or assistance is the task force providing to help with gun control? Is the task force helping you to improve how you investigate smuggling tactics?

[David Bertrand]

I'm not aware of the task force's work.

The tactics we are currently investigating are always shifting. As soon as we foil one, another crops up. They are using the same routes as they do with narcotics.

The most common tactic now is people acquire guns legally in the United States for 300 or 400 U.S. dollars and then ship them to Canada, most often by land. That's the main tactic

We try to thwart as many tactics as possible, but as you know, criminals innovate on a regular basis. We try to keep up with their inclinations as quickly as we can.

[Sébastien Lemire, Bloc, Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC]

Have the measures for reporting illegally acquired firearms been successful? Do we need to go so far as to ban handguns?

[David Bertrand]

We think so.

We also want to look into the issue of firearm parts. I'm talking about ghost guns here. Some individuals are illegally importing gun frames from companies like Polymer80, and then modifying them with parts they get delivered through the Canadian postal service. For example, once the frame arrives, the trigger and top can be ordered as parts and they can finish assembling the gun. A ghost gun can therefore be built with three orders.

So we'd like better legislation to have more control over the purchase and circulation of these parts.

[Sébastien Lemire, Bloc, Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC]

I understand. These modified weapons are also more dangerous, since they can hold more bullets, as we know.

Last fall, you mentioned that investigations were getting tougher because of social media and the culture of violence that has become a way of life. People are no longer afraid of retaliation or prison, as you said earlier. Violence and guns have become a way to gain notoriety and fame in the community.

In your opinion, are social media a new recruitment tool for gangs? Do you have the resources to respond to this added complexity in your investigations?

[David Bertrand]

We believe that social media are indeed used for recruitment. Crime groups—I am talking about established groups—find that posting their actions on social media honours their colours. People want to protect their ego on social media, so any group threatened by another has to retaliate to maintain its credibility on social media. Social media are also used to pay tribute to group members who have died or are in prison. In short, social media are used to display the group's colours and demonstrate its credibility: unfortunately they have become a new battleground.

Do we have the resources available? We're constantly monitoring social media very closely. Unfortunately, we can't control all the information circulating on social media, but our monitoring allows us to learn more and gain insight into criminals who flaunt themselves in public.

On the other hand, again, we do face some legal hurdles. When we see guns on social media, the investigations that follow are complex and it takes time to lay charges, as we have to determine the location and timing of the intended action and demonstrate that an actual weapon was used.

[Sébastien Lemire, Bloc, Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC]

As we know, it attracts an audience that is getting younger and younger too.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Jim Carr]

Thank you very much.

Finally, for the last set of questions on this round, we have Mr. MacGregor.

You have six minutes, whenever you're ready.

[Alistair MacGregor, NDP, Cowichan—Malahat—Langford, BC]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Mr. Hipwell, maybe I'll start with you. As you're very well aware, under Canadian firearms law people are allowed to possess a large-capacity magazine that has been permanently altered. I know that the public safety minister's mandate letter mentions “requiring [a] permanent alteration of long-gun magazines so that they [could] never hold more than five rounds”.

I guess it may be difficult for police officers from external visual inspection to determine whether a large-capacity magazine has been permanently altered, and since it is illegal to hold more than five rounds, wouldn't it make sense from a policy perspective just to ban large-capacity magazines outright so that there is never any question when law enforcement officers are involved in a tense situation?

[Matthew Hipwell]

On the subject of high-capacity magazines, they were prohibited back in 1993. That's when the magazine capacity limits were brought into legislation, so they are prohibited and they have been since 1993.

[Alistair MacGregor, NDP, Cowichan—Malahat—Langford, BC]

I understand that, but I'm talking about the requirement that they're permanently altered so they can never hold more than five rounds. What I'm saying is that there might be some difficulty in determining whether such a magazine has been altered or not. It may raise questions like not knowing if you're dealing with someone who's got five rounds or 30 rounds, because that's going to make a huge difference in how a tense situation could be resolved.

[Matthew Hipwell]

It can be a factor, absolutely, in dealing with a situation. I'm trying to answer your question on if they're already at five rounds. What are you saying?

[Alistair MacGregor, NDP, Cowichan—Malahat—Langford, BC]

Just a simple ban on large-capacity magazines, even if they've been permanently altered, so there is never a question as to whether it's holding five rounds or 30....

[Matthew Hipwell]

But that is already in place.

[Alistair MacGregor, NDP, Cowichan—Malahat—Langford, BC]

I understand that, but that may not be visually apparent to a law enforcement official who is confronting a tense situation.

[Matthew Hipwell]

I can tell from my past experience as a law enforcement officer whether it was one round, five rounds or 50 rounds. I didn't want to look at any of those. To say there's going to be something visual for a law enforcement officer to base his risk assessment on in the situation is not a very wise option.