Public Safety Committee on Feb. 5th, 2024

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Doug Shipley]

Thank you, Mr. Shipley.

Thank you, Ms. Michaud.

Mr. Julian, you have six minutes.

[Peter Julian, NDP, New Westminster—Burnaby, BC]

Thanks very much, Mr. Chair.

I will start with Mr. Shipley and Ms. Bahr-Gedalia.

We have had this legislation basically sitting now for 20 months. It was introduced in June 2022. We're coming up to the second-year anniversary and we're only beginning, really, the hearings about the legislation.

How important is it that we move forward quickly on this, given the problems all of our witnesses have enumerated? What would you suggest, in terms of a time frame, given the length of time it has taken to get the bill this far?

[David Shipley]

I'll go first.

In the time that we have languished, Australia has published a comprehensive cyber strategy in relation to some horrific attacks on their citizens and their personal medical information, Europe has moved forward with legislation, and the United States has moved forward with bold executive and legislative action. We are the easy target left in the west, so we are going to continue to attract an unhealthy amount of attention that is going to steal prosperity from Canadians and risk safety.

So, I would say, soon, because the reality is this: We'll get this legislation passed, and then we're going to end up in at least a year, if not two years, of battling over regulation. That goes back in particular to Ms. Proctor's point about the importance of getting the definitions as clear as possible in legislation so we can get moving on this stuff.

We are way behind. I know Parliament has many issues in front of it, but we live in a digital world and we're acting like we're in the 20th century.

[Peter Julian, NDP, New Westminster—Burnaby, BC]

Before I go to Ms. Bahr-Gedalia, would it be fair to assume that, given the fact that other countries have moved forward, the longer we delay getting this bill right and getting it back to the House and then to the Senate, the more likely it is that we'll have serious incidents because we have that vulnerability?

[David Shipley]

Absolutely.

[Peter Julian, NDP, New Westminster—Burnaby, BC]

Thank you.

Ms. Bahr-Gedalia, on the same question, how critical is it for us to act?

[Ulrike Bahr-Gedalia]

It is very critical. That's a definite “yes” that we should act in a timely manner.

I would also like to emphasize that we need to get it right and not rush through it in a way that.... I'm a little hesitant to name a time frame because the focus should be on all the challenges we pointed out and addressing these properly.

Comments were made as well on national cybersecurity strategies and plans in other countries and so forth. We don't have our national cybersecurity strategy yet launched. We greatly look forward to what the Canadian Chamber has fed into the submission, because for me and our members it would provide the broader, overarching picture of cybersecurity per se. Bill C-26 would be one part of that strategy. It's a holistic view and a comprehensive approach there.

Lastly, I wanted to make one comment in terms of time and I lost my train of thought there. You had another follow-up question to Mr. Shipley, I think. Could you please remind me what it was?

[Peter Julian, NDP, New Westminster—Burnaby, BC]

It was on the vulnerability that this creates with Canada not moving forward while other countries put in place legislation.

[Ulrike Bahr-Gedalia]

Yes, I wanted to make one more point that members had mentioned to me.

We had this experience with another bill. If we wait too long, provinces might go ahead and start their own legislation. A few members have mentioned that there is a concern that while we are internationally lagging and maybe also not harmonizing right now in many ways, this could happen on a domestic or provincial level as well. A patchwork always works to the disadvantage of businesses.

[Peter Julian, NDP, New Westminster—Burnaby, BC]

Thank you for that.

Ms. Proctor and Monsieur Traoré, you've spoken about the issue of regulation and also having in place a reporting period that is less onerous. Is getting the legislation right responding on those two areas?

I would ask all the witnesses whether they have specific amendments to offer that would take improvements to the bill out of the regulatory format and put it into discussions that we can have around this table for adoption in Parliament.

[Daina Proctor]

Thank you for the question.

To bring both of your questions together, wherein you were asking about the risk of not acting, in IBM we operate with, partner with and strategically advise over 1,700 organizations. Admittedly, they're not all in the direct scope of this, but they would be impacted through the passing of Bill C-26. Many of those organizations struggle. Many of those organizations are focused on Canada. Many of them are focused on multinational. By not acting within Canada, we are, in effect, encouraging those organizations to pause on Canada.

We don't have the regulations. We don't have the definitions. We don't have the laws in place for them to understand the arena they're playing in within Canada. This bill languishing is causing that pause to get larger.

From a collective individual perspective, it also shifts into the mindset of our resources, our teams and our neighbours. Our graduates—our children coming up through education —challenge what Canada's position is on cyber risk and cybersecurity, not just for the critical infrastructure that we need to run and operate, but for the employment opportunities that we have and that our organizations have.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Doug Shipley]

Thank you.

[Daina Proctor]

I hope that gives you a bit more perspective on that, so when we lean into the reporting time period, it equally speaks to the risk. One of the best things we do—

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Doug Shipley]

Ms. Proctor, I'm going to have to ask you to wrap it up. We're out of time. I'm sorry.

Committee, we have the room resources until 6 p.m. I think there's some very interesting information coming out here, so I'm going to give everybody one more—

[Ron McKinnon, Liberal, Coquitlam—Port Coquitlam, BC]

I have a point of order.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Doug Shipley]

Yes, sir.

[Ron McKinnon, Liberal, Coquitlam—Port Coquitlam, BC]

I'd like to suggest that, rather than do that, we go to the next panel. I may have misunderstood—

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Doug Shipley]

You were reading my mind. I was going to give two minutes to each side—

[Ron McKinnon, Liberal, Coquitlam—Port Coquitlam, BC]

Two minutes for each party is eight minutes. We are going to be cutting into the time for the next panel. I'd love to hear more from these guys, but we also need to hear from the next panel.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Doug Shipley]

Maybe someone wants to put forward a UC motion.

Mr. Julian, I don't know what the will of the committee is. We can talk like this, but we're wasting time.

[Peter Julian, NDP, New Westminster—Burnaby, BC]

Mr. Chair, I thought your suggestion was a good one, doing one more round for two or three minutes for each party. I think that makes sense.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Doug Shipley]

We don't have UC on that, so we'll make it very quick. I will hold everyone to two minutes. If you want to pass your time, then we can move on.

That's two minutes, starting with Mr. Lloyd.

[Dane Lloyd, Conservative, Sturgeon River—Parkland, AB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I'd like to start by offering my thoughts and prayers, and hopefully the committee's, on the terrible news about the cancer diagnosis of His Majesty, the King of Canada, King Charles III. I know our thoughts are with his family, and also with the families in Atlantic Canada, including, I believe, our chair's, who are undergoing a massive snowfall right now. I wanted to share our committee's thoughts and prayers with those families.

I also want to put a motion on notice. I'm not going to be moving the motion, but I want to put on notice a motion regarding car thefts. As we know, in the past eight years, car thefts have exploded in this country. Particularly in the last three years, we've seen a massive explosion in the number of insurance claims that have been paid out. In 2022—

[Kristina Michaud, Bloc, Avignon—La Mitis—Matane—Matapédia, QC]

I have a point of order, Mr. Chair.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Doug Shipley]

Yes, go ahead, Ms. Michaud.