Public Safety Committee on Feb. 29th, 2024

[Peter Julian, NDP, New Westminster—Burnaby, BC]

The federal budget will be tabled soon, so we need to know whether we're talking on the order of $50 million or $100 million.

We know that these integrated teams could really improve the situation. They did in British Columbia, which has seen no increase in auto theft, unlike elsewhere in Canada.

If you could give us a figure in the coming days, we would see that as really important and useful information, especially since the budget will be tabled soon. I think all parties understand that action must be taken.

Thank you, Mr. Brochet.

I'm going to pass to Mr. Service now.

I am quite stunned by the numbers you've given us. To make sure I properly understand, you're talking about 10,000 to 20,000 automobiles in Ontario that potentially could be stolen and revinned because there is no process in place under the current government in Ontario.

[Dan Service]

That's correct, and that's not including the ones that are issued new VINs by the province. The province issues 20,000 a year.

[Peter Julian, NDP, New Westminster—Burnaby, BC]

In terms of the provinces that have already put in place a VIN verification service, what would it take for our government to crack down on this? That's a major loophole.

[Dan Service]

I'm happy to answer that question, sir.

If I may, I would like to make one other statement before I answer it. We heard from police that 80% are going through the ports. We heard IBC say 60% and Équité say 50%. The reality is that, whatever the accurate number is, as soon as you choke off access to the ports, then revinning, duplicate VINs and cloning are going to increase in Canada.

As far as what it takes for Ontario to make a difference, simply put an assigned VIN program in place that's at no cost to government. They can identify the standards to which the work needs to be done. It's the same in Alberta and Saskatchewan. It could be up and running in a matter of months.

[Peter Julian, NDP, New Westminster—Burnaby, BC]

Is it no cost to government because it's user-pay?

[Dan Service]

It's a consumer-pay model, yes.

[Peter Julian, NDP, New Westminster—Burnaby, BC]

How much would the consumer be paying?

[Dan Service]

For a tandem-axle trailer—which of course is anywhere from $10,000 to $100,000 in cost, depending on what you have—or anything with a motor, it's $500. For any single-axle trailer, it's $150.

[Peter Julian, NDP, New Westminster—Burnaby, BC]

What you would see with that is avoiding those potentially 20,000 stolen vehicles being laundered illegally.

[Dan Service]

Absolutely.

What happens is this: There are problematic VINs. Problematic VINs can be anything. They can be duplicates. They can have no history. Of course, if something is more than two, three or four years old, there should be some history as to who owned it previously when it comes up for sale again. They can be nonconforming. There's an algorithm that describes exactly when a VIN is properly applied or not. There's a check digit that is wrong if it's not a correct VIN. They can be illegible, or they can be missing.

There are a whole bunch of reasons why VINs can be problematic. However, in every one of those cases, the vehicle needs to be identified. Imagine a manufacturer issuing a VIN for a vehicle that they have a responsibility for and never looking at what it was. That's what's happening right now.

[Peter Julian, NDP, New Westminster—Burnaby, BC]

It's stunning to me to know that there is legalized laundering of stolen vehicles taking place in Canada. I mean, we know about the chop shops, but it's quite stunning to me that a provincial government like the Ford government would not take action.

How many governments in Canada have a formal VIN verification process, of the 10 provinces?

[The Chair, Liberal, Heath MacDonald]

Answer quickly, Mr. Service.

[Dan Service]

Alberta and Saskatchewan do. British Columbia does a pretty good job, because they issue via their ICB locations. P.E.I. is very good. Their commercial vehicle inspectors issue VINs there.

Manitoba, Ontario and Quebec don't have one.

[The Chair, Liberal, Heath MacDonald]

I'm glad I let him respond, Mr. Julian.

[Peter Julian, NDP, New Westminster—Burnaby, BC]

I was going to say that B.C. has a great government, though.

[The Chair, Liberal, Heath MacDonald]

We're into the final round. We only have about nine minutes left, so that's two and a half minutes for each person.

Mr. Lloyd, go ahead, please.

[Dane Lloyd, Conservative, Sturgeon River—Parkland, AB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I'm going to start with Commissioner Carrique.

Thank you for your testimony. I know that my Liberal colleagues on the committee like citing what's happening in the United States, in American papers, but we're in Canada. I want to talk about what's happening in Canada today.

Recently, York Regional Police reported that a man walked out of a Newmarket court after being released on bail and immediately attempted a carjacking before stealing a truck and hitting several police vehicles.

Commissioner, is the status quo in our justice system, in terms of bail and sentencing, creating dangers for your police officers on the street?

[Commr Thomas Carrique]

Thank you for your question.

Certainly the prevalence of auto theft and of repeat violent offenders not being incarcerated is creating a danger for my officers and for officers right across this country. There are great improvements with Bill C-48, and there's the five-year period to evaluate it. We're looking forward to seeing what improvements come as a result of that.

However, there's absolutely more we can do, as I've highlighted in my recommendations.

[Dane Lloyd, Conservative, Sturgeon River—Parkland, AB]

Thank you, Commissioner.

I'm going to go to Mr. Service. I'm not sure if you're aware, but we know that vehicle parts and cloned VINs are being sourced from scrapyards.

Alberta had a policy that was basically forcing scrapyards to record who the sellers were and their information. It was ruled unconstitutional in November of last year because the court said that this was federal jurisdiction under Criminal Code jurisdiction.

Do you think the federal government needs to do more to ensure that our scrapyards are not becoming a source for stolen vehicle parts and stolen vehicle VINs?

[Dan Service]

With the advent of technology, the ability to sell parts from vehicles all over the world has become exceptionally easy. I think regulation around how those can be dispersed and what records you need to keep is critical. If they are not provided the level of regulation that VIN assignment and VIN issuance should have, then the process will certainly continue.

[Dane Lloyd, Conservative, Sturgeon River—Parkland, AB]

It's great to see provinces taking the initiative, but it is discouraging when a court rules that it's federal jurisdiction in terms of keeping this information. Clearly, the federal government has a very important role to play and needs to play that role. Wouldn't you agree?

[Dan Service]

I would agree.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Heath MacDonald]

Thank you, Mr. Lloyd.

We'll move on to Mr. McKinnon, please.

[Ron McKinnon, Liberal, Coquitlam—Port Coquitlam, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

My questions are for Mr. Service. I'd like to follow up on the questions about VINs. My impression previously was that VINs were established by the manufacturer. You're telling us that's not the case and that, by and large, individual jurisdictions assign VINs.

[Dan Service]

It happens both ways. Manufacturers, if they apply, go to what's called a “WMI”, a world manufacturer identifier, which are the first three digits of a 17-digit VIN. Those identify who the manufacturer is.

In cases where the province has to assign a VIN—I'll use Alberta as an example—they have a WMI that's issued by Transport Canada for any VINs they issue. It's for a variety of things. Perhaps it's a home-built trailer or a vehicle that is amalgamated from three other vehicles, and currently the VIN that's on the vehicle no longer accurately describes what it is. There are circumstances in every province where it is necessary for a VIN to be issued by the province itself.