Public Safety Committee on March 11th, 2024

[Dane Lloyd, Conservative, Sturgeon River—Parkland, AB]

I'm sorry. Just to clarify, we are speaking to the amendment right now. Okay.

I would say that this is relevant to the greater study, but maybe we could be talking about the amendment put forward by Ms. O'Connell.

[The Chair, Liberal, Heath MacDonald]

Thank you.

[Chris Bittle, Liberal, St. Catharines, ON]

Thank you.

I'll finish my point, and then I'll give up the floor. That is appropriate. I thought we were back on the general list.

I will just add Ms. Kelly's comments, give up the floor and go back on the speaking list, if that's all right. Her response was that “the minister does not have a role. It's very much an operational decision.”

Mr. Chair, I'd like to go back on the list on the main motion, please.

[The Chair, Liberal, Heath MacDonald]

Thank you, Mr. Bittle.

Ms. Ferreri.

[Michelle Ferreri, Conservative, Peterborough—Kawartha, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you to everyone for being here. I know that victims' families are watching at home—Marcia, Laura and Tennille—and I hope we get some resolution today for you, as I know how retraumatized you've been.

I want to read this into the record, because I think it's really important:

Everyone here, everyone in this city, everyone in this province, everyone in this country knows that you are a dangerous offender....

The behavioural restraint that you require is jail. You require it, in my view, for the rest of your natural life.... You are a sexually sadistic psychopath. The likelihood of you being treated is remote in the extreme.

That is from Justice LeSage, who sentenced Paul Bernardo. Those are his words.

When I came into this committee today, a reporter stopped me and asked me if we believe that in our justice system we should be focusing on rehabilitation rather than punishment. I asked that reporter to repeat back to me what the sentencing judge said about Bernardo. Can he ever be rehabilitated? The answer is no.

What we're here to do today is discuss what this is. I want to talk about the amendment that Ms. O'Connell has put forward. I think adding more witnesses to the list is a great idea, because the point of the motion put forward by my colleague Mr. Caputo is to figure out how and why this secret transfer of Canada's most sadistic and notorious rapist and killer happened. If we don't understand how and why, we can't fix it.

An article came out March 9 from the CBC: “Corrections chief briefed Mendicino's chief of staff weeks before Bernardo's prison transfer”. In fact, the office was notified seven times.

To Ms. O'Connell's point about how in years gone by never have we seen such gross incompetence, this isn't necessarily always about policy and legislation. This is about incompetent people who didn't do their jobs. That's what we have to delve into here to make sure this never happens again.

[Kristina Michaud, Bloc, Avignon—La Mitis—Matane—Matapédia, QC]

I have a point of order, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Heath MacDonald]

Go ahead, Ms. Michaud.

[Kristina Michaud, Bloc, Avignon—La Mitis—Matane—Matapédia, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I wonder if we can refocus the debate. The motion before us concerns the case of Luka Rocco Magnotta, not that of Paul Bernardo, which the member seems to be treating as the main case.

I would like us to return to the discussion on Ms. O'Connell's amendment and then to the discussion on the main motion.

[The Chair, Liberal, Heath MacDonald]

Thank you, Ms. Michaud.

Ms. Ferreri.

[Michelle Ferreri, Conservative, Peterborough—Kawartha, ON]

Thank you, Chair.

Actually, the motion put forward does state this: “in light of the transfer of sadistic killer Luka Magnotta out of a maximum security prison to a medium-security prison, the same facility that serial killer and rapist Paul Bernardo was transferred to last year”. Absolutely, this includes Bernardo, and it's important that we talk about that.

To go back to my point, I am here in regard to the amendment, which I think is critical. It's great to hear that Mr. Bittle is going to be supportive of this, as this directly impacts the people of his riding, who have written directly to him. I'm going to read into the record some of the comments that have been stated.

This comes from Laura, Marcia and Tennille, who were the best friends of Kristen French, whose life was taken. I asked for their response to the CBC article saying that the public safety minister's office was notified seven times. They gave me permission to read this to the committee:

Hi Michelle,

Once again we are saddened and disappointed that the Government of Canada has added to the continued emotional trauma and victimization of the many people who have been affected by this man and his brutal crimes. To know that so much communication took place about the transfer and yet no one deemed it important enough to ensure that the minister was addressed personally speaks yet again to the disregard of victims in our Criminal Justice System.

This has to change. Victims should and must come first.

Thank you for your continued effort in this.

Laura, Marcia, and Tennille

Now, the bigger question has come up here today of where this all fits in terms of operations and who the commissioner of Corrections Canada reports to—

[Chris Bittle, Liberal, St. Catharines, ON]

I have a point of order.

[The Chair, Liberal, Heath MacDonald]

Go ahead.

[Chris Bittle, Liberal, St. Catharines, ON]

I guess what's good for the goose is good for the gander. I think my comments were called out for not being specific to Ms. O'Connell's amendment. Although Ms. Ferreri's points are relevant to the motion at large, if we could focus on Ms. O'Connell's amendment, then we can get back to the main motion and discuss the points that are relevant.

[The Chair, Liberal, Heath MacDonald]

Thank you, Mr. Bittle.

[Michelle Ferreri, Conservative, Peterborough—Kawartha, ON]

I'll come back to the amendment, which is what I am speaking to, and the six meetings. Ms. O'Connell has suggested we do fewer than that and that we're moving things around. With adding those—

[Ron McKinnon, Liberal, Coquitlam—Port Coquitlam, BC]

I have a point of order.

The amendment has nothing to do with the number of meetings. It's just about the number of witnesses.

I'm wondering if we could perhaps proceed to a vote on that amendment, and then we could go back to the main motion.

[The Chair, Liberal, Heath MacDonald]

We'll call a vote on the amendment.

Is it unanimous?

[Jennifer O'Connell, Liberal, Pickering—Uxbridge, ON]

Mr. Chair, I'd like a recorded vote.

[The Chair, Liberal, Heath MacDonald]

Let's have a recorded vote.

(Amendment agreed to: yeas 10; nays 1 [See Minutes of Proceedings])

Before we go any further, Ms. Michaud, you had your hand up. I just want to make sure I didn't miss anything on the screen.

You're good. Okay.

Ms. O'Connell.

[Jennifer O'Connell, Liberal, Pickering—Uxbridge, ON]

On that same point, can you please update us on the speaking order for the main motion?

[The Chair, Liberal, Heath MacDonald]

Yes. It's Mr. Julian, Ms. Michaud, Mr. Motz, Ms. O'Connell and Mr. Bittle.

[Jennifer O'Connell, Liberal, Pickering—Uxbridge, ON]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Heath MacDonald]

We'll go back to Ms. Ferreri.

[Michelle Ferreri, Conservative, Peterborough—Kawartha, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

[Kristina Michaud, Bloc, Avignon—La Mitis—Matane—Matapédia, QC]

Mr. Chair, please note that I still wish to speak [Technical difficulty—Editor], but I will speak when [Technical difficulty—Editor].

There seems to be a bit of a delay for those of us on video conference.

I just want to be sure that my speaking time is preserved, because I still want to speak.