Evidence of meeting #12 for Public Safety and National Security in the 45th Parliament, 1st session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was c-8.

A video is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

Members speaking

Before the committee

Gary Anandasangaree  Minister of Public Safety
Arbour  Director General, Telecommunications and Internet Policy Branch, Department of Industry
MacSween  Director General, National Cyber Security Directorate, Department of Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness
Bilodeau  Senior Assistant Deputy Minister, National Cyber and Security Branch, Department of Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness
O'Gorman  President, Canada Border Services Agency
Gionet  Acting Assistant Deputy Minister, Protection and Family Programs Sector, Department of Citizenship and Immigration
Lang  Director General, Integrity Policy and Programs, Department of Citizenship and Immigration
Boudreau  Deputy Commissioner, Federal Policing, Royal Canadian Mounted Police

The Chair Liberal Jean-Yves Duclos

I now call this meeting to order.

Good morning, everyone. Welcome to meeting number 12 of the House of Commons Standing Committee on Public Safety and National Security.

Pursuant to Standing Order 108(2) and the order of reference from the House dated October 3, 2024, the committee is meeting for its study on Bill C‑8, an act respecting cyber security, amending the Telecommunications Act and making consequential amendments to other acts.

I’d now like to welcome the witnesses who are here for the first hour of this meeting, starting with the Honourable Gary Anandasangaree, MP and Minister of Public Safety.

We’re also joined by officials from the Department of Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness, including Mr. Richard Bilodeau, senior assistant deputy minister, national cyber and security branch; Mr. Colin MacSween, director general, national cyber security directorate; and Ms. Kelly-Anne Gibson, director, cyber protection policy division.

We also have officials from the Department of Industry, including Mr. Andre Arbour, director general, telecommunications and Internet policy branch, and Mr. Wen Kwan, director general, spectrum and telecommunications sector.

Welcome, all of you.

Minister, you have five minutes for your opening remarks.

11:05 a.m.

Scarborough—Guildwood—Rouge Park Ontario

Liberal

Gary Anandasangaree LiberalMinister of Public Safety

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you for this opportunity to speak to Bill C‑8 on critical cyber systems protection.

As we know from Canada's national cyber-threat assessment, cyber-threats are evolving rapidly. Cyber-threat actors, both state-sponsored and others, are increasing in number and sophistication. Canada must be better prepared to deal with these threats to protect Canadians, our critical infrastructure and our economy.

Bill C-8 will enhance cybersecurity in four major sectors: finance, telecommunications, energy and transportation. Part 1 of the bill amends the Telecommunications Act to enshrine the security of Canada's telecommunications systems as a policy objective, bringing the security framework regulating the sector in line with those of other critical infrastructure sectors. That will allow the government to act swiftly in an industry in which seconds can decide the safety, confidentiality and ability of essential services.

The bill also introduces the new critical cyber-systems protection act, or CCSPA, which would legally require designated operators to protect their critical cyber-systems.

This part of the bill provides the tools the government needs to take further action to address a range of vulnerabilities.

Right now, the list of vital services and systems is comprised of the Canadian telecommunications services, banking systems, energy and transportation; however, the Governor in Council may also add to that list.

Those designated as operators of vital services and systems would be obliged to develop and implement cybersecurity programs and mitigate supply chain and third party risks, as well as comply with cybersecurity directions.

The CCSPA will also increase information sharing on cyber-threats by requiring the reporting of cybersecurity incidents above a certain threshold. Right now, there are no such legal requirements for industry to share this kind of information, which means that there could be threats that the government is not aware of. There is also a legal mechanism for the government to compel action in the face of known threats or vulnerabilities. When it comes to national security, we cannot rely on the goodwill of industry alone. We must enshrine the more robust cybersecurity framework into law.

Since the introduction of this legislation under former Bill C-26, which was passed unanimously in the House last year, there have been widespread consultations with stakeholders. We listened to the concerns that were raised.

Among these was a need for more oversight and transparency, as well as the need to ensure privacy is protected.

Canadians' privacy is already protected through a number of constitutional and legislative instruments, but Bill C-8 will provide greater certainty to Canadians that their privacy and personal information will be protected. When confidential information must be shared, it must be treated as confidential. Recipients of such information must similarly be respectful of that confidentiality.

The bill also assures Canadians that orders or directions issued under both part 1 and part 2 of the legislation will not be used to engage in surveillance or to intercept private communication. This responds directly to the concerns we heard from civil liberty groups.

Bill C-8 also includes the provision to increase the government's transparency and accountability. For example, stakeholders said that there was a potential for orders or directions to be issued without the government consulting or considering relevant factors such as whether reasonable alternatives exist to issuing an order or direction. As a result of these concerns, the bill includes a reasonableness standard and a non-exhaustive list of factors that the Governor in Council must first consider before issuing an order or direction.

Bill C‑8 provides transparency and accountability to Canadians. It also provides further reassurances to Canadians that their privacy and personal information will be protected.

I hope my honourable colleagues will agree that Bill C-8 would provide a strong foundation for securing Canada's critical infrastructure against fast-evolving cyber-threats.

I look forward to your questions and comments.

As well, I want to take this moment to thank the colleagues who are here at the table with me.

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

The Chair Liberal Jean-Yves Duclos

Thank you, Minister.

We’ll now open the floor to questions.

We’ll start with Mr. Caputo for six minutes.

11:10 a.m.

Conservative

Frank Caputo Conservative Kamloops—Thompson—Nicola, BC

Thank you, Minister. I've never heard anybody say that they look forward to my questions, so I appreciate that.

I'd like to also thank the officials here.

Minister, you are here on Bill C-8 and Bill C-12, so I will be asking you about both bills today.

Minister—

Gary Anandasangaree Liberal Scarborough—Guildwood—Rouge Park, ON

Excuse me, Mr. Caputo.

If I may clarify, my understanding was that the first hour was on Bill C-8 and the second hour was on Bill C-12, but I'm more than glad to....

I don't have the officials here for Bill C-12 until the second hour.

11:10 a.m.

Conservative

Frank Caputo Conservative Kamloops—Thompson—Nicola, BC

We can ask them questions when we need to. I would just like to explore your expertise, your understanding and your knowledge on both bills organically, if you will.

The Chair Liberal Jean-Yves Duclos

That is fine, Mr. Caputo. You have the right to do so.

With that being said and with officials not being here, you may not get the answers that you would be entitled to.

11:10 a.m.

Conservative

Frank Caputo Conservative Kamloops—Thompson—Nicola, BC

Could we pause the time, please? There was a point of order that was just mentioned.

At the end of the day, I'm not looking for answers that officials may give. If I have questions for officials, then I will ask the officials the questions. Right now, this is my time to ask the minister about what the minister knows about Bill C-8 and Bill C-12.

We actually asked for two separate meetings on Bill C-8 and Bill C-12. We didn't get them, even though the parliamentary secretary committed to them, so I will be asking the minister questions on both bills.

Why don't we actually start with one thing that's certainly germane to Bill C-8? When was the foreign interference commissioner supposed to be appointed, Minister?

Gary Anandasangaree Liberal Scarborough—Guildwood—Rouge Park, ON

I've indicated this a number of times. They will be appointed in short order. We are finalizing and will bring forward a name to colleagues opposite for feedback.

11:10 a.m.

Conservative

Frank Caputo Conservative Kamloops—Thompson—Nicola, BC

That's not what I asked you, Minister. Again, please answer the questions I ask.

When was the foreign interference commissioner supposed to be appointed?

Gary Anandasangaree Liberal Scarborough—Guildwood—Rouge Park, ON

As I indicated to you—and I've spoken to you a number of times on this—we have been working toward appointing a foreign interference commissioner. I wish this had been done much earlier. As you're aware, we are going through a process. We will have a name—

11:10 a.m.

Conservative

Frank Caputo Conservative Kamloops—Thompson—Nicola, BC

Minister, I asked you a five-second question. I should get a five-second answer, because it was supposed to be a date.

This could not be a more clear question, Minister.

When was the foreign interference commissioner supposed to be appointed? Give just the date, please.

Gary Anandasangaree Liberal Scarborough—Guildwood—Rouge Park, ON

Mr. Caputo, I'm here to speak about Bill C-8 and Bill C-12. I would respectfully ask that you keep to those parameters. If you wish for me to come on another matter, I have made myself available on a number of occasions.

11:10 a.m.

Conservative

Frank Caputo Conservative Kamloops—Thompson—Nicola, BC

Apparently, when we do that, we can't actually get it, even if the parliamentary secretary agrees to it.

You say you're not here to talk about foreign interference. Are you saying that Bill C-8 and protecting our critical infrastructure from foreign adversaries...? Are you saying that our foreign interference and our foreign registry are not germane to that bill? Am I hearing that right?

The Chair Liberal Jean-Yves Duclos

There's a point of order.

Marianne Dandurand Liberal Compton—Stanstead, QC

Yes, Mr. Chair. We’re here to study two very important bills, namely Bill C‑8 and Bill C‑12, but we’re now talking about completely different issues.

We’re fortunate to have the minister and his team here with us today. I’d really like us to focus on these important bills so we move forward and see if we have anything to say or verify about them.

We’re wasting time on issues that are off topic. Mr. Chair, I’d like us to get back to the subject of today’s meeting.

The Chair Liberal Jean-Yves Duclos

Very well.

Your time was stopped, by the way, Mr. Caputo, to make sure there was no time wasted—

11:10 a.m.

Conservative

Frank Caputo Conservative Kamloops—Thompson—Nicola, BC

On the same point of order, no standing—

The Chair Liberal Jean-Yves Duclos

I'm sorry. I'll just finish, please.

I think we all heard the comment. This is a suggestive comment. It's not a real point of order, so I'll turn back to you, Mr. Caputo.

11:10 a.m.

Conservative

Frank Caputo Conservative Kamloops—Thompson—Nicola, BC

To the Liberals' point, we actually could have been past this if the minister would just tell us the date. Foreign interference is certainly germane to protecting our infrastructure. If we can't agree on this, we can't agree on what day of the week it is, Minister.

What date was this supposed to be done? What date was a commissioner supposed to be appointed by? It's just the date.

Gary Anandasangaree Liberal Scarborough—Guildwood—Rouge Park, ON

Mr. Caputo, I have indicated that we are working towards the appointment of an interference commissioner—

The Chair Liberal Jean-Yves Duclos

Minister and Mr. Caputo, I'm sorry. I have to interrupt both of you.

There are two issues here. First is the topic, which is obviously open to discussion. Second is the overlapping of comments and questions.

If we want people to understand the flow of the conversation, including in the other official language, we both cannot speak at the same time. This is making the work of the interpreters impossible. I would invite everyone to have a fluid, intense conversation if they wish to, but it cannot overlap. Otherwise, I'll have to stop everyone.

11:15 a.m.

Conservative

Frank Caputo Conservative Kamloops—Thompson—Nicola, BC

Well, foreign interference is pretty darn serious. We had 11 parliamentarians who were suspected.

I asked you for a date, Minister, and you won't even give that to me—to Canadians—on something that's pretty darn serious. If you say you're answering a question for me and I didn't even ask that question, when all we want to know is this....

Canadians expect seriousness on foreign interference and you, as the minister, are the one in charge. You're the one appearing here, and you won't even give us a date. For that, you should be reflective on whether or not you're doing your job, with all due respect, Minister.

Let's move on.

Sima Acan Liberal Oakville West, ON

On a point of order, Chair, Mr. Caputo is talking about Bill C-70. The agenda was shared with all members. In the first hour, we have Bill C-8 and in the second hour Bill C-12.

I have difficulty with this. Why are we now discussing Bill C-70 instead of Bill C-8?

The Chair Liberal Jean-Yves Duclos

Again, that is an appropriate comment, but it's not a point of order. It's suggestive to others of how they want to use their time.

I'll turn back to you, Mr. Caputo.