Public Safety Committee on Nov. 6th, 2025

[Matt Strauss, Conservative, Kitchener South—Hespeler, ON]

Who decides that the allegations are frivolous? Who decides that? If it's not a judge—

[The Chair, Liberal, Jean-Yves Duclos]

I'm sorry. I was a being bit patient, but as you know, MP Strauss and Minister, when the comments and questions overlap, it becomes impossible for a significant portion of those listening to us to understand what's going on, because the interpreters cannot do their job. I'd like to invite both of you to speak in a manner that makes it possible for everyone to follow the conversation.

I'll turn it back to you, MP Strauss, for 30 seconds.

[Matt Strauss, Conservative, Kitchener South—Hespeler, ON]

If these secret orders are not subject to judicial review, then it is you and Melanie Joly who will decide if there are reasonable grounds and if the threat is significant. When you say it's not arbitrary, it is arbitrarily left to the ministers, by my reading of the bill. Is that not correct?

[Gary Anandasangaree, Liberal, Scarborough—Guildwood—Rouge Park, ON]

We rely on information and advice from experts. Some of them are here today.

[Matt Strauss, Conservative, Kitchener South—Hespeler, ON]

I'll take that as a yes. Thank you.

[Gary Anandasangaree, Liberal, Scarborough—Guildwood—Rouge Park, ON]

It's not a yes, Mr. Strauss—

[Matt Strauss, Conservative, Kitchener South—Hespeler, ON]

Why would you not—

[The Chair, Liberal, Jean-Yves Duclos]

I'm sorry, but that will be the end of this segment.

[Gary Anandasangaree, Liberal, Scarborough—Guildwood—Rouge Park, ON]

I would appreciate—

[The Chair, Liberal, Jean-Yves Duclos]

No, I'm sorry. I would hate to suspend. That is the end of this segment.

We have five minutes now for MP Ehsassi.

[Ali Ehsassi, Liberal, Willowdale, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, Minister, for being here with us again today.

I have to say I find the members opposite are just rambling off all the time on this legislation. I find it to be a very sophisticated piece of legislation.

Mr. Strauss just said that if someone says something you disagree with, then you could cut off their access to the Internet. In very clear language, tell me why there is no chance that would ever happen.

[Gary Anandasangaree, Liberal, Scarborough—Guildwood—Rouge Park, ON]

I can categorically say that will not happen, Mr. Ehsassi. The situation here is about ensuring our critical cyber-infrastructure is protected. In an exceptional circumstance where an individual's account may be revoked, it is with the clear understanding that the individual poses a continued threat and that the person's continuing the service will pose a threat to our critical infrastructure. This is not an ad hoc exercise. This comes from advice we will receive from experts.

I am going to ask Mr. Arbour, with your permission, to elaborate on the work and the analysis they do before the advice goes to the Minister of Industry, who will then bring it to my attention.

[Andre Arbour]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

The phrase “telecommunications system” stems from the existing vocabulary in the Telecommunications Act, which goes back many decades. This is speaking to the telecommunications facilities and services rather than the expressive commentary of individuals.

The types of threats that we may be concerned about would include an incident in 2016 when Canadian traffic bound for Korea was redirected to China for six months and opened up to surveillance in that regard. It can involve malware or ransomware that is threatening to bring down the telecommunications networks on which Canadians rely.

The order power in question refers to a reasonable necessity corresponding to the gravity of the threat in that instance. If other remediation mechanisms are not possible as a last resort, those are the circumstances of that authority.

In terms of confidentiality, that exists where divulging the vulnerability in question would invite greater cyber-attacks to the telecommunications services in question. It is subject to review in terms of notification to NSIRA, NSICOP and an annual report to Parliament that must describe the orders in question, including their necessity and reasonableness.

[Ali Ehsassi, Liberal, Willowdale, ON]

Last week when you were here, your testimony was very helpful.

Minister, answer one more time, just to clarify this issue: What are the safeguards in this bill and why are the assertions being made by Mr. Strauss not to be taken seriously?

Not only does this legislation have many safeguards, but in addition to that, it seems that he doesn't even understand the most basic concepts of administrative law.

Would you kindly clarify that for Canadians?

[Gary Anandasangaree, Liberal, Scarborough—Guildwood—Rouge Park, ON]

Let me broaden the issue.

I think Canadians are rightfully concerned about their privacy rights. They should be. Every Canadian should protect their privacy with the utmost vigour and their free speech with the same level of vigour.

What we're trying to do here is in no way to impede an individual's right to free expression or their individual ability to access the Internet or other telecommunications services. As Mr. Arbour has explained, under the narrowest of circumstances and as a last resort, we are going after individuals who pose a threat to our telecommunications system.

Oftentimes it's dangerous to read legislation in a manner that doesn't connect to other long-standing legal covenants. I think it's important, in the context of legislative review, to look at the established covenants and legal principles in which we're working. I can appreciate some of the concerns that are expressed, but they are ill-founded and without merit.

What is important for the purpose of this committee.... I would really implore this committee to look at where we are today with respect to the challenges around cybersecurity and what measures we need to take, as parliamentarians, to protect everyone in Canada and every piece of critical infrastructure—telecommunications and others—and to safeguard against threats.

[The Chair, Liberal, Jean-Yves Duclos]

Thank you, Minister and MP Ehsassi, for that exchange.

This is the end of this part of the meeting.

Our gratitude goes to the officials who took the time to participate today.

We will suspend for a few moments before we turn to the second hour on a different topic.

[The Chair, Liberal, Jean-Yves Duclos]

I call the meeting back to order to continue with our work.

Pursuant to the order of reference from the House dated October 23, 2025, we’re meeting for our study of Bill C‑12, an act respecting certain measures relating to the security of Canada’s borders and the integrity of the Canadian immigration system and respecting other related security measures.

I’d now like to welcome the witnesses with us for the second hour of this meeting.

We’re joined by the Honourable Gary Anandasangaree, Minister of Public Safety.

We also have Erin O’Gorman, president of the Canada Border Services Agency.

We also have two officials from the Department of Citizenship and Immigration, including Mr. Jean‑Marc Gionet, acting assistant deputy minister, protection and family programs sector, and Ms. Tara Lang, director general, integrity policy and programs.

We’re also joined by Ms. Shannon Grainger, senior assistant deputy minister, portfolio affairs and communications branch of the Department of Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness.

Lastly, we have Jodie Boudreau, deputy commissioner of federal policing for the Royal Canadian Mounted Police.

Welcome, all of you.

Minister, you have the floor for five minutes for your opening remarks.

[Gary Anandasangaree, Liberal, Scarborough—Guildwood—Rouge Park, ON]

It's becoming a bad habit, Mr. Chair.

I'm grateful for the opportunity to speak about Bill C-12, the strengthening Canada's immigration system and borders act. I want to thank the committee for the work you are undertaking in advancing this legislation.

This crucial piece of legislation will provide our law enforcement agencies with the tools they need to keep our border safe and secure and communities across the country safe.

Our borders are well protected, but we need to continually evolve to keep them that way so we can address emerging threats.

Here are some of the recent successes. Last year, the Canada Border Services Agency seized over 50,000 kilograms of prohibited drugs, cannabis, narcotics and chemicals. This is in addition to seizing more than 900 firearms. The CBSA also removed over 18,000 inadmissible people in 2024-25. That is the highest number of removals in a decade and an increase from approximately 16,000 the year before.

To build on these successes and adapt to a changing world, we need to ensure that our law enforcement agencies have the necessary legal authorities to act. Bill C-12 gives them those.

After we introduced Bill C-2, the strong borders act, in June, parliamentarians and stakeholders expressed concerns about provisions in the bill. Our government listened. With this new bill, Bill C-12, we believe we strike the right balance between the need to protect our borders and Canadians' privacy rights.

Bill C-12 draws on elements of Bill C-2 that are designed to strengthen the surveillance of our borders, combat transnational organized crime and stop those who seek to exploit our immigration system.

We introduced Bill C‑12 because there is urgency to get law enforcement services the tools they need.

So many of the threats to our border have a link back to transnational organized crime. It is imperative that we're proactive, that we stay ahead of the criminals and that we close any vulnerabilities that may exist.

Through this bill, we will amend the Customs Act to obligate certain points of entry and exit to provide and maintain facilities for any purpose that falls under the Canada Border Services Agency's mandate, including the examination and detention of goods destined for export.

The bill will also amend the Oceans Act to add security-related activities to the Coast Guard, including the ability for the Coast Guard to conduct security patrols and to collect and share information with security and law enforcement partners.

In addition, Bill C-12 will enhance the RCMP's ability to share information on registered sex offenders with domestic and international partners.

The bill will introduce measures to strengthen our authorities related to immigration documents and information sharing. It will strengthen Canada's asylum system by improving the application process to ensure that the system is not used as a shortcut to regular migration.

Bill C-12 will also strengthen Canada's anti-money laundering and anti-terrorist fundraising regime.

Finally, we know the devastating impacts that illicit drugs, including fentanyl, have on our communities.

Bill C-12 gives the health minister tools to quickly control precursor chemicals that can be used to produce illicit drugs. They will allow law and border enforcement agencies to move quickly to prevent the illegal importation and use of precursors and will ensure strict federal oversight over any legitimate use of these chemicals.

I want to reassure law enforcement that we intend to advance Bill C-2 to ensure they have the necessary resources to deal with the complex and sophisticated crimes we are seeing today. We need to be in line with our Five Eyes partners, and as members of Parliament we owe it to Canadians to work together to get this done.

Our hard-working CBSA and RCMP officers work around the clock to keep our borders and communities safe, and I want to thank them for this service.

We owe them a debt of gratitude and we owe it to give them authorities and tools that will increase their effectiveness and capacity.

Thank you.

I'm happy to take questions.

[The Chair, Liberal, Jean-Yves Duclos]

Thank you, Minister.

I’ll now yield the floor to Mr. Caputo for six minutes.

[Frank Caputo, Conservative, Kamloops—Thompson—Nicola, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair. Through you, I ask the following questions. First, I begin by thanking the officials for being here.

I'll be focusing my questions, Mr. Chair, on the minister, and where appropriate, Ms. O'Gorman.

Ms. O'Gorman, do you have addresses for 32,000 people listed on your website who are currently deportable and on warrant, as in you don't know where they are? Do you have addresses for those people?

[Erin O'Gorman, President, Canada Border Services Agency]

As you say, we don't know where they are, so we don't have their addresses.

[Frank Caputo, Conservative, Kamloops—Thompson—Nicola, BC]

When the minister says, and this was his testimony last time, “Mr. Caputo, we have addresses for individuals who are in the removal queue”, you don't have addresses for people in the removal queue. Is that correct?

[Erin O'Gorman]

You made reference to a particular part of the removal queue. We have removals in progress. We know where those people are. We are in close touch with them. We are ensuring they are removed. We do have warrants out for individuals who have absconded.

[Frank Caputo, Conservative, Kamloops—Thompson—Nicola, BC]

Right. You don't know where they are.

Obviously, people do contact my office. I'm wondering how many armed officers, because the armed officers are the only ones who can make the arrests.... Is that right, when it comes to people for whom we have a warrant for their arrest, they're the ones who literally go out and find these people? Is that correct?

[Erin O'Gorman]

Yes.