Public Safety Committee on Nov. 25th, 2025

[Claude DeBellefeuille, Bloc, Beauharnois—Salaberry—Soulanges—Huntingdon, QC]

I have a point of order, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Jean-Yves Duclos]

Mrs. DeBellefeuille, you have the floor.

[Claude DeBellefeuille, Bloc, Beauharnois—Salaberry—Soulanges—Huntingdon, QC]

I don't know if you're paying attention to the questions my colleague is asking, but I'm having trouble finding how they relate to my amendment. I don't know if you can call him to order.

[The Chair, Liberal, Jean-Yves Duclos]

Indeed, without necessarily forcing them to do so, we can strongly encourage members to speak to amendment BQ‑1.

[Grant Jackson, Conservative, Brandon—Souris, MB]

Certainly. My apologies, Mr. Chair.

I wonder then, in specific reference to a dwelling, as mentioned in Mrs. DeBellefeuille's amendment, what the context of that might look like if this amendment came into effect, in the context of Westman and the impact that it may have on CBSA operations in the region that I represent?

[Graeme Hamilton]

It's my understanding that, if the amendment were to pass, there would be a certain amount of additional work that the CBSA would need to undertake in order to access goods that are contained in a dwelling-house.

As previously testified, we haven't thought of a scenario where that would necessarily be the case, but in the unlikely event that one were to occur, we would need to go through that process in order to get judicial authorization to enter the dwelling-house. That would take the time that it would take, and there would be a cascading impact down in terms of other CBSA availability.

[Grant Jackson, Conservative, Brandon—Souris, MB]

In that context, then, in terms of our region that is many small towns that are hours apart, are CBSA officers then going door to door in those communities in a situation like this? Are you working with RCMP partners? How would that logistically work?

[Graeme Hamilton]

This would only be for the amendment. The amendment, if it were to pass, would only come into play in a very specific set of scenarios where the goods have been identified by the CBSA as being ready to be exported because they're reported. There are a number of other conditions listed in section 97 that would have to be met before the CBSA would then have that information to make the request to access and to look at those goods.

It would not necessarily require a CBSA presence running around looking for these things. It would have to be based on where we know goods are being loaded, unloaded and packed and where they've been reported for potential export or imminent export. We would then look at whether or not we had a need to examine these goods. Then we would seek to access those goods and examine them.

[Grant Jackson, Conservative, Brandon—Souris, MB]

With respect to our constituency, other than Brandon, there's very little that's stopping and starting within the constituency. Is there any concern on your part that being so far from the crossings may present a challenge in identifying those locations as opposed to when they might cross the border?

[Graeme Hamilton]

No. From a licensing perspective on the warehousing side, they have to be licensed, so we have good knowledge in terms of where those locations are. It's only specifically bonded in sufferance warehouses, so it's a subset of all warehouses as well. I don't think that it presents any particular challenges.

[Grant Jackson, Conservative, Brandon—Souris, MB]

Okay, that's interesting to me. I'm curious about the resourcing side. We know that's a bit of a challenge for you folks, specifically with the commitment of the government to hire 1,000 new border security officers. We haven't seen a whole lot of results on that.

In terms of the warrant as well, our courts are quite backlogged. Do you see that presenting any challenge in terms of a timely turnaround on accessing a judge to provide those warrants?

[Graeme Hamilton]

I'm sorry, but I wouldn't be in a position to testify to the time it is currently taking the CBSA to get warrants. We do have to get warrants as part of a big swath of the intelligence, enforcement and inland enforcement that we undertake, but I'm not working on that side and wouldn't want to hazard a guess about whether or not this would exacerbate that issue and how long it currently takes.

[Grant Jackson, Conservative, Brandon—Souris, MB]

That's fair enough, although I can understand that the context would be a bit challenging for the courts to be able to provide these things in a timely fashion.

In terms of the entry into the “dwelling-house”, which is a warehouse, is that how we're terming that in subparagraph 3(b) of the amendment?

[Graeme Hamilton]

In the amendment, “dwelling-house” refers back to a specific definition of “dwelling-house” that exists in the act already.

[Grant Jackson, Conservative, Brandon—Souris, MB]

In terms of gaining entry to the “dwelling-house”, then, is that something that the CBSA, once the warrant is granted, would enact themselves, or would you be working with the RCMP and other partners?

[Graeme Hamilton]

My understanding of how the amendment is drafted is that this would be access that the CBSA would use in order to access that for the exercise of regulatory examination powers under the Customs Act. It wouldn't be in conjunction with the RCMP, who would be there for criminal purposes. It would be regulatory enforcement.

[Grant Jackson, Conservative, Brandon—Souris, MB]

In our neck of the woods, should a warrant be issued for a warehouse in Brandon, are officers being pulled away from border crossings or other duties to go and investigate these cases? Under the amendment, is that how that would be interpreted?

[Graeme Hamilton]

If the CBSA had information that there were goods being readied for export in a particular warehouse that we had intelligence on and we thought there was a reason for us to examine them, we would assign officers to do those examinations.

I don't know off the top of my head whether or not there are CBSA officers specifically assigned in Brandon, but in many large metropolitan areas, there are CBSA officers who are present because of airports, seaports and other reasons. Part of their job is to do warehouse inspection. There are requirements under the licences that are provided for warehouses in terms of engagement with the CBSA, and part of that business is that they're available to do those inspections.

[Grant Jackson, Conservative, Brandon—Souris, MB]

Yes, and I totally get that. In urban contexts, that makes a lot of sense, but if you're sending somebody to investigate a warehouse in Tilston, there's not a lot around there. There certainly aren't officers there on a regular basis to investigate those types of warehouses where we know illicit and illegal actors set up shop wherever they think they can hide the most effectively.

I'm curious about the deployment side of things and how that would work in more rural and remote areas of the country. That wasn't much of a question, but I know that people in my area who... There was a significant bust at the International Peace Garden border crossing not long ago that was heading for a warehouse somewhere in Manitoba. People are concerned about the implications for this in rural and remote areas.

[Graeme Hamilton]

I'm sorry, but I wouldn't be able to speak to how this would be operationalized specifically, although I would just recall that there are similar provisions for imported goods that already exist. The CBSA does use that access provision in order to undertake warehouse inspections under those existing authorities in section 21.

[Grant Jackson, Conservative, Brandon—Souris, MB]

I think I'm very close to being done with my questions specific to my constituency, but I do want to understand a little bit more. Could you be clear on the “reasonable grounds” piece as mentioned in paragraph 3(a) of the amendment?

What would that look like to officers in the CBSA in terms of information or a tip that would lead you to conduct an investigation or an inspection of a “dwelling-house” as described under the act?

[Graeme Hamilton]

“Reasonable grounds” is a legal search authority that the CBSA is very familiar with. A number of our examination authorities rely on that as a legal threshold that they need to meet before they undertake certain examinations. There's a well-understood framework that supports that and is taught at the CBSA college in Rigaud. It is well understood by officers, and they would need to be able to meet that in order to prove that to a judge.

I'm not a lawyer, so I wouldn't want to pronounce on specifically what they are, but there is a very defined set of criteria that needs to be met.

[Grant Jackson, Conservative, Brandon—Souris, MB]

The reason I ask that is not to question whether folks at the CBSA understand the legal framework of reasonable grounds, but I think people are frustrated in my constituency. They see illicit operations going on all the time, even across the border. Guns are coming in and they're ending up in Melita. How else did they get there but from the United States? Nothing is happening. Nobody is taking action. Nobody is holding these criminals accountable. They're openly and blatantly operating in our small communities.

I think people are curious, when they see this happening so blatantly in our communities, why that isn't reasonable enough grounds to take action. I understand there may be context in terms of other facets of an investigation that is ongoing. This is a very small part of a long and organized crime operation, so you're trying to get the bigger fish, but I ask that question because I think the average rural Manitoban is frustrated sometimes that action isn't taken on these operations more quickly.

I don't know if you have any response to that.

[Graeme Hamilton]

I have no specific response to that. I'm sorry.

[Grant Jackson, Conservative, Brandon—Souris, MB]

It's frustrating for them, but I know you folks are doing the best you can. I honestly hope that when this bill proceeds, it does give you the tools to better deal with these illegal operators.

Mr. Chair, that reaches the conclusion of my questions. I know some of my colleagues have further questions that they would like to ask as well, so I will cede the floor to them.