Evidence of meeting #16 for Public Safety and National Security in the 45th Parliament, 1st session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was border.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Conservative
Frank Caputo Conservative Kamloops—Thompson—Nicola, BC
When we have complex investigations.... I think an ISP address typically lasts three months, and then it changes. Is that correct?
Associate Professor, As an Individual
It depends on the provider. It can be minutes in certain instances.
Conservative
Frank Caputo Conservative Kamloops—Thompson—Nicola, BC
Most complex investigations don't end within three months. Would you agree?
Associate Professor, As an Individual
I would defer to my law enforcement colleagues on this one.
Conservative
Frank Caputo Conservative Kamloops—Thompson—Nicola, BC
Mr. Bédard and Mr. Sauvé, sometimes they take years. Is that right?
President, National Police Federation
Sometimes they take years, and if we were to talk about child pornography, for example, that can take months, if not years.
Conservative
Frank Caputo Conservative Kamloops—Thompson—Nicola, BC
Typically, it's also a workload issue, because the report goes to Washington, D.C.; it then goes to the RCMP in Ottawa and then local law enforcement, and, depending on how busy they are.... Now, because of Bykovets, they have to write up a production order to get what would normally be easily accessible information.
If an investigation takes a year and the data is only retained for three months, that's crippling to law enforcement, is it not?
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Jean-Yves Duclos
I'm sorry to interrupt. The question was excellent, but we will have to wait for the answer because we now need to move to MP Blair, a distinguished guest today.
Thank you for being here, Bill. You have five minutes, please.
Liberal
Bill Blair Liberal Scarborough Southwest, ON
Welcome to all of our witnesses. I've had the opportunity to work with you quite extensively in the past, and it's good to see you here. Thank you for your testimony today.
If I may, I'd like to ask Chief Swamp a question.
The federal government provides the Akwesasne Mohawk Police Service with about $12 million a year in funding. I'm aware that the Saint Regis Mohawk Tribal Police service, your counterpart on the American side, receives no federal funding whatsoever.
I wonder if you might be able to suggest to us whether the lack of funding for your partner on the U.S. side of the border has any impact on your ability to work closely with it.
Acting Chief of Police, Akwesasne Mohawk Police Service
It brings out the difficulty in providing assistance when we are working on the same target. I wouldn't be able to provide a response to the exact facts regarding their funding. I am aware that they rely heavily upon grants and go from grant to grant.
To answer your question, when we are targeting a certain person in the direction of the southern portion of Akwesasne, and they lack resources and staffing, it does affect us, yes.
Liberal
Bill Blair Liberal Scarborough Southwest, ON
I'm strongly of the opinion that cops count. If you want to prevent criminal activity, particularly organized criminal activity, you have to make it more difficult for the criminals to commit those crimes and make it more likely they will be caught. The people who are responsible for those investigations play a very critical role in preventing those crimes, and it's essential for them to be adequately resourced and funded to do the important job we ask them to do.
I'm not a former prosecutor, nor do I have a law degree, but I have been involved in the lawful access discussion for decades. I was the chair of the CACP national organized crime committee and the chair of the national security committee when we introduced the Canadian law enforcement strategy, which led to the Canadian integrated response to organized crime, or CIROC, with which you are all familiar.
I've participated in extensive consultations on the issue of lawful access, first of all, when it was conducted by then attorney general Allan Rock and then solicitor general Wayne Easter prior to 2005. I was also very involved in advocacy and testimony before the committee on behalf of the police community when the Harper government introduced Bill C-30 and Bill C-52.
I want to return, if I may, to Dr. West. I very much appreciate and respect your opinion, but we also have opinions from the Department of Justice on the legislation before us today.
As I understand it, the test of the constitutionality of legislation is based on four principles. One is whether it's a pressing and substantive objective. We've heard considerable testimony from our witnesses today and from others that, in fact, the objective of law and action is important to society, and it's significant enough to justify limiting a charter right. It is certainly not trivial or an administrative inconvenience that we're addressing.
The next principle is that it has to be rationally connected to the objective, and I believe this is quite clearly articulated.
Another principle is that it has to be minimally impairing. If there are alternative ways to achieve the objective, it could cause a reflection, but it has been suggested to us by our Department of Justice officials that, in fact, it is minimally impairing.
Finally, it has to be proportional in its effect, and the benefit of the action has to be proportional to the negative impacts of the law.
We've heard ample testimony, and most Canadians are aware, that organized crime—particularly at our borders—represents a significant national security risk and that we have obligations to our neighbours with respect to the work we do.
This has been through a number of legislative attempts in the past. I appreciate your opinion, but I think we need to explore the debate with respect to its constitutionality a bit further.
Associate Professor, As an Individual
That assessment has to be applied to every single provision, not to the legislation as a whole, and I know you know that. Vast pieces of part 14 and part 15 meet the test, but some elements don't, and this is informed not only by my own reading but also by the readings of those who speak on behalf of privacy and civil liberties groups.
As someone who used to work as counsel to CSIS, I'm very aware of the impetus behind the law, but I think, in particular, the information demand requirements.... Simply, the proportionality and the minimal impairment are not met, because it is so broad. I think it could be made constitutional, but I am not aware that this element has ever been subject to the kinds of consultation you mentioned and that we were a part of.
This is a novel issue, and it's novel to address a point of law that has arisen since the last time there was consultation. It deserves a re-look. I will say it is moving forward as its own bill now.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Jean-Yves Duclos
Madame West, I'm sorry for interrupting. I let that conversation go a bit longer because of the common interest around the room, but I have to stop now to be fair to everyone.
We'll move to Madame DeBellefeuille for two and a half minutes.
Bloc
Claude DeBellefeuille Bloc Beauharnois—Salaberry—Soulanges—Huntingdon, QC
Mr. Chair, thank you for generously allowing me to take a few extra seconds, given the interpretation delay.
Ms. West, your comments are helpful. I want to tell you that I greatly admire you. You're a smart woman who also held her own against a former minister of public safety and emergency preparedness. Congratulations.
As members of Parliament, we've seen civil society react quite strongly in opposition to parts 14 and 15 of Bill C‑2. In my opinion, this comes down to a failure to take public opinion into account and to involve civil society in the consultations. Civil society may not be aware of the vital need to relay information in real time. I think that this element was lacking when it came to getting everyone on the same page. I believe that civil society understands the challenges. However, perhaps it doesn't understand the urgent need for a more specific framework. I think that this constitutes a barrier.
We'll need to prepare a report following our study on border security. If our report were to include just one of your recommendations for improving border security, what would it be?
Associate Professor, As an Individual
It would be to pass the amendment with respect to production orders for basic subscriber information. It's a very narrow recommendation, but it is something that needs to be done. Without it, you can't move on to having a data-sharing agreement with the United States.
Bloc
Claude DeBellefeuille Bloc Beauharnois—Salaberry—Soulanges—Huntingdon, QC
Okay.
My next question is for you, Mr. Bédard.
Did the budget or the measures announced give any clear indication that the drones will be replaced by higher‑performance models? The officers are asking for technology that will help them do their job in real time. Has their request been heard? Are we on the way to obtaining these drones?
Director, Atlantic Central Region, National Police Federation
I don't have that information right now.
I know that a number of members in Saint‑Jean‑sur‑Richelieu are carrying out this study and that they will be submitting a business case. However, given the current financial situation, I'm not sure that they can obtain these drones. That's why we're lobbying for these drones.
I think that you know the geography of Quebec. The border in Beauce is 472 kilometres long. In Saint‑Jean‑sur‑Richelieu, it's 160 kilometres.
Bloc
Director, Atlantic Central Region, National Police Federation
Right. When we combine everything, it makes a vast border.
Bloc
Claude DeBellefeuille Bloc Beauharnois—Salaberry—Soulanges—Huntingdon, QC
How do we compare with the United States? Does the United States have this advanced technology on its border?
Liberal
Director, Atlantic Central Region, National Police Federation
I should ask around before confirming my answer. However, I believe so. If our members are asking for this technology, they have probably seen it on the other side of the border.
Bloc
Claude DeBellefeuille Bloc Beauharnois—Salaberry—Soulanges—Huntingdon, QC
Can you send us this information?
November 27th, 2025 / 12:15 p.m.
Director, Atlantic Central Region, National Police Federation
Yes, absolutely. I can send you confirmation.