Public Safety Committee on May 7th, 2026

[Leah West]

In the Five Eyes, it's varied. For example, in Europe and the United Kingdom, it's only for serious crime, so it's not for everything that they can go and retain information for a year. In the United States, their authorities don't allow for year-long retention; that's not part of their act. Every—

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Frank Caputo]

Mrs. DeBellefeuille, your time is unfortunately up.

Mr. Lloyd, you have five minutes.

[Dane Lloyd, Conservative, Parkland, AB]

Thank you.

Thank you to the witnesses for being here.

Dr. West, one concern I've heard is that many tech companies advertise that they have privacy controls. For example, companies that have smart devices in homes advertise that the microphones can't be turned on remotely so that they can listen. Under this legislation, it's kind of odd to me that it talks about how it's not here to look at content, but ministerial orders can order these companies to provide the capabilities to turn a remote microphone on. Is that correct?

[Leah West]

When they talk about content, that's in terms of retention of data. It does allow for the creation or ordering of intercept capability, so that would be an intercept capability. You could potentially have an order that would require that capability and as long as it didn't create a systemic vulnerability, yes, it could be implemented and they would have to change their advertising.

[Dane Lloyd, Conservative, Parkland, AB]

Now, that creates a bit of a conundrum, because what if it's a secret ministerial order?

[Leah West]

True. I don't have an answer for you.

[Dane Lloyd, Conservative, Parkland, AB]

For the benefit of the committee and those watching, if a company says that remote microphones can't be turned on and the government issues a ministerial order saying you need to build in the capability to turn on a remote microphone, the company in question could not change its advertising to say it would not turn on your microphone without violating the very non-disclosure and secrecy clause. They would still be advertising that they would not turn on remote microphones while the government has forced them to create that capability for law enforcement.

[Leah West]

I'm not sure how a company would manage that situation.

[Dane Lloyd, Conservative, Parkland, AB]

It's just an issue for me, I think.

On another aspect, I'm concerned about this blanket metadata you've talked about. I can certainly understand that if you suspect that somebody or a group is involved in criminal activity, you could order.... I think that already exists; preservation orders already exist. However, if we're talking about a blanket requirement that the metadata of all Canadians and all people residing in Canada be kept for up to a year, that creates a lot of very interesting constitutional privacy law.... Do you have any thoughts on that?

[Leah West]

I agree.

I listened to the questioning in the last testimony about whether or not this creates a seizure, and if it doesn't create a seizure would it still violate section 8. I think there would be a serious chilling effect and a belief that people lacked privacy because, ultimately, the state could then get access through a transmission production order or a tracking production order, or even location data, for any crime going back up to a year. That does create a chilling impact and would have serious implications for how people viewed their right to privacy in Canada—and it wouldn't just be people in Canada. It would be anyone who has services with a Canadian company.

[Dane Lloyd, Conservative, Parkland, AB]

I'm less concerned about the people committing crimes. I'm concerned about the innocent Canadians whose metadata is going to be collected. Are you at all concerned...?

We saw the Salt Typhoon hack in the United States, where some very sensitive personal data was hacked by foreign agents. It was discovered after the fact that it was the systemic vulnerabilities that were required by the U.S. government that allowed for this. I know the legislation says that it doesn't want to create systemic vulnerabilities, but I'm not sure that lawful access can be facilitated without creating.... You said there's a risk. Then we're also talking about forcing companies to keep people's metadata—blanket—for the whole country for an entire year.

Are we not creating a treasure trove of people's personal data that hackers are going to want to have access to?

[Leah West]

As I said in my opening statement, any point of access created that didn't previously exist and any pool of data you're creating that didn't previously exist create new risks, so the regulatory framework—

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Frank Caputo]

I'm sorry. I have to cut you off, Professor West.

It's hard to stay within the time limit when we get to the last questions.

It's tough but fair.

With the final questions, we have Dr. Powlowski.

[Marcus Powlowski, Liberal, Thunder Bay—Rainy River, ON]

Do I need to ask my question in French?

[Voices]

Oh, oh!

[Marcus Powlowski, Liberal, Thunder Bay—Rainy River, ON]

I'm told it's not necessary.

Darcy, it's good to see you out there, even though you're on a screen. I've gotten to know Darcy pretty well over the last few years. I have to say he's a wonderful chief in Thunder Bay. I'm really glad you're here.

You gave one concrete example of a 14-year-old girl. Maybe you can tell me, after I finish posing this rather lengthy question, whether that was a real case. I wonder about other cases you've encountered—you may want to disguise sufficiently whom you're talking about—where lawful access would have been helpful to you. I would think in terms of child pornography....

Especially in a place like Thunder Bay, there seems to be a real issue with trafficking people. There's also, as we both know, a big issue with gangs from Toronto and Ottawa coming up to Canada...well, not Canada. I guess it's Canada down here in Toronto and Ottawa as well. They're coming up to Thunder Bay and committing crimes there. There must be communications between the gangs going back and forth between Toronto, for example, and Thunder Bay.

Can you give other examples of how lawful access would help you in doing your job and addressing these problems?

[Chief Darcy Fleury]

The real case is of those youth who are coming up to us from down south. We see them on a regular basis. Some are as young as 14 years old. Of course, we have concerned parents who are reaching out and asking for some support. They go originally to the Toronto police and then come to us. They're asking for some support to locate these kids.

Really, when we're talking about the exploitation of these youth, they're getting involved in all kinds of different crimes and gang activities. Having in the legislation more immediate access would be a real benefit to us. When we start to see the chains and the links between some of the groups down south and these kids who are coming up here, it would be really beneficial to us to get ahead of it, especially when we're looking for these youth. We have real-life cases of families who have come up and asked us to go out and help search for their youth. Quite often, we find them involved in drug activities or the gang-related work that's being done in this community.

That happens on a regular basis. On average right now, I'd say we've probably gone from 60% to 50% of the people involved in that type of activity coming from southern Ontario. Again, they are very young people who are involved and exploited. We are looking at some of those cases. Are they being human-trafficked? They are coming into our flophouses, and then they end up doing all kinds of activities.

This is a real concern for us. I think if we had the ability to access a bit sooner, it would be a definite benefit to us to enforce some of the acts that we do.

[Marcus Powlowski, Liberal, Thunder Bay—Rainy River, ON]

Chief, I could see in that situation, where young people aged 15 or 16 are coming up and getting involved in crimes, how you might want to be able to access their data, for example, on their cellphones, on their Internet or in their emails. That's desirable, but there's a concern about the slippery slope. Although that may be desirable, how do I know this doesn't involve looking in on...?

I have a 17-year-old boy. He has his social circle. They have girlfriends. They're always socializing back and forth. How do I know that basically everything they do, including talking to Siri, doesn't go to the police? That would seem to be an unnecessary violation of things we think ought to be confidential.

[Chief Darcy Fleury]

That's right. I think police services across the country are very good at identifying the specifics of what they're looking for. Going back to my presentation, this is not about an overarching, wide open playing field for police to go into and get what information they want. It has to be specific to the event we're looking for.

For example, if we have a missing youth from southern Ontario, we would investigate that as a missing youth. If we had access to their data and the material they had, it might show those connections immediately that would allow us to start formulating a bigger investigation, along with the contacts and associates they have who may be in Thunder Bay or down in southern Ontario. It would really help us further our investigation a lot quicker and perhaps resolve some of the victimization or even some of the illegal activity they might be doing.

It would be very focused. It would not be wide open.

[Marcus Powlowski, Liberal, Thunder Bay—Rainy River, ON]

Ms. West, could I ask you a question?

I hadn't thought about something like Siri, but that's Internet data. If my 16-year-old kid asks me something and I jokingly say, “Well, if you do, I'll beat you with a baseball bat,” and Siri picks that up—

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Frank Caputo]

Unfortunately, Dr. Powlowski, that is the last thought of this round.

[Some hon. members]

Oh, oh!

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Frank Caputo]

I'd like to thank all of our witnesses for being here.

[Anthony Housefather, Liberal, Mount Royal, QC]

It was just getting good.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Frank Caputo]

We will suspend to bring the next witnesses on board.