Science and Research Committee on April 28th, 2022

[Maxime Blanchette-Joncas, Bloc, Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC]

Thank you.

Here's a stunning number: some 15 Canadian universities received 72% of public research funding in 2021.

We understand that the imbalance you refer to affects universities. Apart from research funding, are there any other aspects that may affect actual research?

[Céline Poncelin de Raucourt]

Yes. Apart from research funding, institutions must be able to provide a research environment conducive to talent retention. That's critical. Allow me to explain. We say we want to attract, develop and support talent everywhere, but universities must have the means to achieve their ambitions. The ecosystem must support them as well. As we all know, the research environment is increasingly demanding.

To do their work and secure grants, researchers are increasingly required to demonstrate that they meet criteria respecting diversity, equity and inclusion, the management of research data and national security aspects of their research. Research and the requirements researchers are must meet to obtain research grants are thus becoming more complex.

Researchers often require support teams if they want to succeed in obtaining those grants. Those teams are a central service and help researchers write their applications and explain how they meet those requirements.

There are fewer teams helping researchers secure grants at institutions that receive fewer research grants. As a result, it's possible that two individuals may have to perform all those tasks and have expert knowledge of the requirements. The task becomes impossible.

Securing funding to support researchers, equivalent funding from one institution to another, is thus a very important issue. What's important is that the institutions have access to capacity-building grants.

Once diversity, equity and inclusion were extensively developed, the granting councils introduced programs to enable smaller institutions, for example, to build their capacity to develop expertise in diversity, equity and inclusion in order to provide better support so researchers could transform their practice in those areas.

Support for the research environment is thus a divisive factor in developing research across the country.

[Maxime Blanchette-Joncas, Bloc, Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC]

Thank you very much.

I believe I've used up all my time, Madam Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Kirsty Duncan]

Yes, you did, my friend.

Thank you, Monsieur Blanchette-Joncas and thank you to all of our witnesses.

We will now go to Ms. Gazan for six minutes.

[Leah Gazan, NDP, Winnipeg Centre, MB]

Thank you so much, Chair, and thank you to all the witnesses for your testimony today.

My first question is for Dr. Breznitz.

Could you please speak about the gendered impacts of limiting funding and support for entrepreneurs and researchers.

[Dr. Shiri Marom Breznitz]

I'm not sure I can answer that question.

In terms of the impact on entrepreneurship itself—on entrepreneurship education, which is what I presented—we see there's still a difference. There's always been a difference between females and males in entrepreneurship. Usually we see more males in entrepreneurship. What we find, nonetheless, is that if we look at returnees to Canada who actually establish firms, we find more females.

On that level, you can see the impact on entrepreneurship. When we think about whom we need to approach to recruit back, that would be more female entrepreneurs than male entrepreneurs.

[Leah Gazan, NDP, Winnipeg Centre, MB]

Thank you so much.

Dr. Aiken, you served as the vice-chair of the Canadian Institutes of Health Research. I know one of the goals of your tri-agency on equity, diversity and inclusion is to support equitable access to funding opportunities for all members of the research community.

What are some of the key barriers to fully realizing this goal? What are some initiatives that the federal government could take to support this goal better?

[Dr. Alice Aiken]

Thank you for that question.

I am, in fact, currently the interim chair of the governing council of the CIHR, which was the first granting agency to declare that 4% of the funds would go to indigenous researchers because 4% of the population of Canada are indigenous. They were the first ones to make that sort of equitable statement. I believe that has worked very well. It's not only 4%, but a minimum of 4%.

In the last budget, we saw money specifically for Black Canadian researchers. I believe it was $24 million, but you would know better than I. I think actually having population-based targets for research funding is one of the measures that can be taken.

Where I think we still struggle as a country.... It's nobody's fault, but we saw during the pandemic that women were really disproportionately affected. It was in all areas, but really in research it was quite astonishing. The number of publications submitted by women researchers dropped and the number of publications submitted by male researchers skyrocketed. That's true in most disciplines.

The number of grant applications we saw from women was substantially reduced and the number for men was increased.

While we thought we were making good strides as a country generally, I think that really shone a light on areas where we perhaps aren't as equitable as we think we are. I would love to have that answer for you, but I don't. I do think it is something that we as a country really need to come to terms with.

[Leah Gazan, NDP, Winnipeg Centre, MB]

Thank you so much for that.

The other question I have for you is related to foreign academic credentials. In terms of credentialing and accepting foreign credentials, this is a huge issue in the riding that I represent.

What do you think the federal government could do to ensure that foreign academic credentials can be made more transferrable to Canadian industries and needs and ensure that the job market is more attractive to recruit researchers and innovators?

[Dr. Alice Aiken]

It's a great question.

I certainly think if we were talking Ph.D.'s and researchers straightly, people know the institutions. If somebody has Ph.D. from another country, we know the institution and it's accepted.

It's interesting to me that professional degrees—M.D.'s, engineering and those kinds of degrees—aren't immediately accepted. Obviously, each country has its standards. In Canada, each province has its standards that we have to meet for professional accreditation, but it really should be much faster.

We're a country of immigrants. Aside from first nations, we were all immigrants at some point. I do believe this is an area that we could really work on to improve professional employment and entrepreneurship.

Interestingly, the entrepreneurs often aren't as affected. If they come and start their own business, whether it's an engineering business or whatever, they often aren't as affected as professionals who have to obtain licenses.

[Leah Gazan, NDP, Winnipeg Centre, MB]

Thank you so much.

[The Chair, Liberal, Kirsty Duncan]

Thank you, Ms. Gazan. I'm afraid that's the end there.

Again, we really want to thank our witnesses and the committee for all the good questions.

We will now go to our five-minute round.

Mr. Soroka, please.

[Gerald Soroka, Conservative, Yellowhead, AB]

Thank you, Madam Chair, and thank you to all the witnesses for coming tonight.

I want to ask a question of Dr. Breznitz first.

You talked about entrepreneurs, but how important is it to have the private sector to assist the new entrepreneurs? Are they creating brand new areas where they don't have any reliance on the private sector?

[Dr. Shiri Marom Breznitz]

Of course, they have reliance on the private sector. There's no reason for them to start a business in a certain area unless there is already some kind of industry here.

You would like to see the relationship. The importance here is in the agencies and those public-private partnerships that we see sometimes in incubators and accelerators where you see the private sector play a role in helping with networking and helping them come in and connect with the local industry, or come back in, if you like, especially if we're talking about students coming back into Canada.

Networking has been proven to be one of the most important tools for the success of small and medium-sized enterprises. That's where I mostly see the role of the private sector.

[Gerald Soroka, Conservative, Yellowhead, AB]

Are we doing enough to attract private industries to the universities, or are we quite maxed out right now? In what areas do we need to improve that?

[Dr. Shiri Marom Breznitz]

That's a different question. If you are talking about contract research—and I'm sure Professor Aiken can probably say more about that—it's much easier for the larger companies to go in for contracts with universities. It's pretty expensive. That's a place for the government to help and to reduce the risks for small and medium-sized enterprises to come in on large research projects.

I'm sure there are a lot of small companies in the area that would love to go into a research project with the lab of professor Dan, but they probably can't afford to go in. It's expensive. That's partly where we can actually help them because a lot of our local, smaller companies don't have money to do extra research. We talked a little bit about the research that is done in Canada. We are low on the BERD; we are very low on business R and D. It's partly because we don't encourage them to do business R and D.

You see direct funding for research R and D of the businesses, especially in the U.S. and Europe. We know from research that when the government provides direct funding for research, private companies will actually invest more in research than they would have done without the support of the government.

[Gerald Soroka, Conservative, Yellowhead, AB]

That's very important because we always talk about how the Government of Canada needs to contribute more. That's kind of the general theme, but you're right that there is a direct link between private industry investing as well. Thank you for that.

I will move on to Dr. Aiken.

A concern of mine was our lack of funding for students, universities, or even the facilities for that matter. I was worried that by attracting people...because of the stigma that we don't have enough money to assist with the research. You're telling me that's not the case. It sounds like people still want to come to our universities and they are still doing so.

Is the only real drawback right now financial or are there other factors we need to consider?

[Dr. Alice Aiken]

It's a great question.

I think universities have tried to become more entrepreneurial, as Professor Breznitz was saying. We see a student body that is much more savvy than, for instance, when I went to university. They ask questions about where this going to take them and what their degree is going to do for them.

I think by having innovation and entrepreneurship programming, we link them with the community where they'll work and perhaps give them an entrepreneurial mindset. They may or may not start a business, but they'll be a better employee if they get that kind of education.

For attracting research talent here, we don't have as much money as other countries. I do think it is partially financial. However, there's a lot to like about coming to Canada as a researcher as well.

I see the chair is going to kick me off the mike.

[The Chair, Liberal, Kirsty Duncan]

Thank you, Dr. Aiken, and thank you, Mr. Soroka.

We'll now go to Mr. Collins for five minutes, please.

[Chad Collins, Liberal, Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON]

Thank you, Madam Chair, and thanks to all the witnesses for attending tonight.

Dr. Aiken, I'll start with you, please.

Last year, the United States invested, I think, $250 billion in science research and innovation. Part of that was to compensate for the brain drain they experienced during the Trump years—not to be partisan about anything. I think we all witnessed the impact their archaic and, in some forms, discriminatory immigration policies had on attracting top talent in all sectors and how they experienced a brain drain of those who felt some discomfort with those policies and left the country for other destinations.

Can you comment on how our country's immigration policies can assist with our efforts to attract top talent? Are there things we can do to tweak the current system to make it easier for universities across Canada to facilitate the migration of students or others to our learning institutions?

[Dr. Alice Aiken]

That's a great question.

As I said earlier, we are a country of immigrants. I'm the child of immigrants. I think Canada has excellent immigration policies and we have for a long time. We are very welcoming to people. I happen to work at a university that is given top marks in the rankings for the international nature of our faculty. We attract people to Canada because we have good immigration policies.

I am not an expert in that, so I can't speak to any detail of the immigration policies, but as I mentioned earlier, we recognize academic credentials from other universities. If somebody's coming in with a Ph.D. as a researcher, we know the university. We know it's legitimate and we're able to bring that person in.

We are really able to attract talent from other countries and we do retain a lot of our own talent because Canada's a pretty great place to live. It's reasonably safe. For all that we love to complain about it, there's not a single Canadian who would give up our health care system. We have outstanding education systems as well.

I do think that we do what we can. Our policies are good. I also think the policy for students being able to stay for up to two years after they finish their program in Canada has been remarkable for attracting international students here. I think that's been a great policy.

[Chad Collins, Liberal, Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON]

Thanks, Dr. Aiken.

Madam Chair, through you, to Dr. Poncelin de Raucourt, the question I have is on how the pandemic impacted the university.

Dr. Aiken gave a snapshot earlier on some of the trends they witnessed at Dalhousie relating to the pandemic. For your university, how has the pandemic impacted your operation as it relates to attracting top talent?

What are your most pressing priorities in terms of government support in a post-pandemic world?

[Céline Poncelin de Raucourt]

Thank you very much.

I'd lean toward what Ms. Aiken said. One of the major consequences we've unfortunately observed is an impressive decline in the research activity and publications of women and young parents at universities. Given the weight that the care of children has represented for women and young parents during the pandemic, the impact on families has been significant. Professors and researchers have had to focus all their energy on making abrupt changes to the way they teach and on putting all teaching online. That has absorbed a lot of their energy for nearly two full years and had a definite impact on research activity.

In addition, it has definitely had a significant impact on the internationalization of research, since migratory flows completely halted during that time. Earlier we discussed immigration problems. A recent study by the Standing Committee on Citizenship and Immigration shows that there have been barriers and a certain amount of dysfunction in that area. It's important that we address this issue if we want to restart the international migratory flows in better conditions for Canada as a whole.

[Chad Collins, Liberal, Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON]

Thank you very much.

[The Chair, Liberal, Kirsty Duncan]

Thank you so much, Mr. Collins.

Friends, I am cognizant of time. We have two minutes left. To be fair to Monsieur Blanchette-Joncas and Ms. Gazan, can you each ask a very short question and give short answers?