Science and Research Committee on Oct. 22nd, 2024

[The Chair, Liberal, Valerie Bradford]

I call this meeting to order.

Welcome to meeting number 103 of the House of Commons Standing Committee on Science and Research.

Today's meeting is taking place in the hybrid format. All witnesses have completed the required connection tests in advance of the meeting.

I'd like to remind all members of the following points.

Please wait until I recognize you by name before speaking.

All comments should be addressed through the chair.

Members, please raise your hand if you wish to speak, whether participating in person or via Zoom. The clerk and I will manage the speaking order as best we can.

For those participating by video conference, click on the microphone icon to activate your microphone, and please mute yourself when you are not speaking. For interpretation for those on Zoom, you have a choice at the bottom of your screen of either floor, English or French.

Thank you all for your co-operation.

Pursuant to Standing Order 108(3)(i) and the motion adopted by the committee on Tuesday, September 17, the committee commences its study of the mission, mandate, role, structure and financing of the new capstone research funding organization announced in budget 2024.

It is now my pleasure to welcome, from Colleges and Institutes of Canada, Pari Johnston, president and chief executive officer; from the U15 Group of Canadian Research Universities, Chad Gaffield, chief executive officer; and, from Universities Canada, Gabriel Miller, president and chief executive officer.

We're looking forward to your testimony today. Up to five minutes will be given for opening remarks, after which we will proceed with rounds of questions.

Ms. Johnston, I invite you to make an opening statement of up to five minutes.

[Pari Johnston, President and Chief Executive Officer, Colleges and Institutes Canada]

Thank you so much.

Good afternoon, everyone.

As noted, I'm the president and CEO of Colleges and Institutes Canada, the national voice of our 135 publicly funded colleges, institutes, CEGEPs and polytechnics.

Research impact for Canadians is the theme I want to underscore today.

Federal research must improve the daily lives of Canadians. It must also drive community and business innovation to support prosperity and well-being for all.

Canada's public colleges and institutes specialize in industry-partnered, problem-driven research that works at the speed of business to de-risk technology development and mobilize greater technology adoption, adaptation and integration. Sixty-two per cent of our partners are Canadian small and medium-sized enterprises that keep the IP generated from our collaborations, supporting wealth creation and retention in Canada and across communities. Colleges' research approach is, by definition, mission driven.

I'm pleased to be here to share the perspective of Colleges and Institutes Canada, or CICan, on the establishment of the new capstone research funding organization.

We support the creation of the capstone organization and the transition to a mission‑driven research program. To achieve this, the mandate, structure and priorities of the capstone organization must help our research system address Canada's major challenges.

Given this impact imperative, we have five recommendations.

Enshrine college and small and medium-sized enterprise representation on the new council of science and innovation to inform the federal strategy and priorities for the capstone.

Have a dedicated college seat on the capstone's board to ensure all research players have a voice in the governance.

Ensure full eligibility for colleges in the capstone’s mission programs.

Hire capstone leadership and staff with a core understanding and experience of industry-academic partnerships, pathways to research implementation and college-led research.

Also, mandate intentional connections and hand-offs with existing federal granting agency programs, where barriers to full college participation must be removed and where the overall role of colleges must be reimagined, recentred and reinvested in to optimize the impact of federal research dollars.

We believe that adopting these recommendations and ensuring the capstone has a stand-alone and robust budget means that the capstone will be well positioned to leverage the unique strengths of colleges to deliver on a mission-driven research agenda, with tangible benefits for Canadians.

Let me share a few other data points that illustrate why we can't afford to leave college capacity on the table if we want to reap the benefits of mission-driven research.

In 2021-22, our colleges and institutes leveraged $150 million in federal government investment for a total of $433 million in research activity to support over 8,000 research projects, prototypes, projects, services and processes in challenge areas such as housing construction, advanced manufacturing and climate-smart agriculture and food production.

However, most impressively, the colleges are achieving these results despite receiving only 2.9% of the funding provided by the three granting councils in 2021.

If we really want the research ecosystem to make a tangible and noticeable impact on Canadians, mission‑driven research that leverages college expertise must become one of Canada's most powerful drivers of innovation.

However, our system is severely challenged right now, putting all this at risk.

The latest reforms at IRCC to the international student program will create a $2-billion shortfall in our system, and our main funding vehicle, the college and community innovation program, is set to expire in 2026. This is creating a perfect storm that threatens the capacity of our system to work with our industry and community partners to produce the research and innovation results that matter to Canadians.

Let's not overlook this tool. This means intentionally supporting and leveraging colleges as full partners in the research and innovation ecosystem.

Thank you for your time.

I look forward to your questions.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Valerie Bradford]

Thank you very much, Ms. Johnston.

We will now turn to Dr. Gaffield.

The floor is yours for an opening statement of up to five minutes.

[Dr. Chad Gaffield, Chief Executive Officer, U15 Group of Canadian Research Universities]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

I would like to extend my greetings to all the committee members.

I'm pleased to be here and to have the chance to contribute to your discussions.

I want to especially thank you for inviting me back to talk about the capstone research funding organization announced in budget 2024, but first let me emphasize the impact of the new research funding announced in budget 2024 for scholarships, fellowships and the core budgets of the federal research granting agencies, as well as AI compute capacity. While more remains to be done, this support better positions Canada and all Canadians for a competitive 21st century.

As you know, U15 Canada is composed of the leading 15 research-intensive universities that came together in 2012 to help advance research and innovation policies and programs for the benefit of all Canadians. These universities act as domestic research hubs for Canada's entire diversified research ecosystem. That includes not only universities but also research hospitals, research organizations and colleges.

In this context, U15 Canada welcomed budget 2024's announcement that it would act on the advice of the advisory panel by creating a new capstone research funding organization. This development reflects increasing efforts to combine the strengths of disciplinary research to study deeply complex phenomena.

When they were first created during the 1960s and 1970s, the federal research funding agencies reflected the established assumption that the best way to advance knowledge was through specialized research. This approach proved stunningly effective during the 20th century and led to major advances that have improved quality of life in remarkable ways.

In recent decades, however, we have also become increasingly aware that disciplinary expertise by itself cannot always tackle complex research questions. For this reason, the federal funding bodies began working years ago to make their collective achievements greater than the sum of their parts.

To manage this approach, the federal research agencies collectively created what is now called the “Tri-agency Institutional Programs Secretariat”, which administers about one-third of the three federal research agency budgets, as well as the vast array of common research policies.

The Bouchard panel concluded that the time had come to take further steps in leveraging the specialized disciplinary strengths of the research funding agencies by evolving the tri-council's secretariat with a new governance structure.

U15 Canada supports these efforts to build on the long-standing success of Canada's research system with updates that seek to strengthen coordination across the granting agency programs through a new governance mechanism. As recommended in the Bouchard report, such updates must preserve and build on the existing strengths of the research support system, including the excellence in fundamental research at the granting councils.

Similarly, updates must be implemented cautiously to minimize any disruption to the existing system and ongoing research.

The new capstone organization must continue to maintain the political independence of funding decisions. This core commitment to academic freedom and the free pursuit of knowledge are foundational principles of Canada's research system and are central components of its success. Funding decisions must always be guided by a commitment to scientific and scholarly excellence, based on competitive applications and merit-based review to support the best proposals and the best researchers.

The new organization must commit to diverse representation, including indigenous researchers, to achieve truly inclusive excellence.

An ongoing connection to health research must ensure that health-based research is guided by health care delivery, patient outcomes and the activities of other federal departments and agencies. Similarly, it is essential that the social sciences and humanities research on human thought and behaviour be fully supported in keeping up with the complex challenges and opportunities of the 21st century.

Finally, we welcome the recent publication of a “what we heard” report following tri-agency-led consultations. We appreciated their recommendation for sustained engagement and ongoing dialogue as the capstone changes are developed and implemented.

Overall, the opportunity to pursue greater interdisciplinary research, to strengthen international research collaboration and to drive mission-driven research, building on the essential specialized research supported by the granting agencies, promises to be an important step forward for the research ecosystem for the benefit of Canada.

We look forward to learning more about this initiative in the coming weeks.

Thank you.

I look forward to the discussion.

[The Chair, Liberal, Valerie Bradford]

Thank you, Dr. Gaffield.

We'll now turn to Mr. Miller.

You have the floor for an opening statement of up to five minutes.

[Gabriel Miller, President and Chief Executive Officer, Universities Canada]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

I'm pleased to be here today.

Thank you for inviting me today to discuss the development of the new capstone agency and its mission, mandate, role, structure and financing.

Universities Canada represents 96 institutions of all sizes. All these institutions are part of Canada's rich research ecosystem.

Advanced research training in all disciplines is the foundation of a post-secondary system that delivers the highly skilled talent Canada needs for a knowledge-driven and innovative economy. The new capstone agency will play a crucial role in this process and in modernizing and strengthening federal support.

Universities Canada participated in the tri-agencies' consultations held this past summer. We also held our own consultations with our members, and we produced a report on these discussions, which has been shared with the tri-councils, the department and the minister's office.

I would like to emphasize three key priorities as we discuss what this new agency might look like and be responsible for.

First, let's protect what's good about the system we've built in Canada.

Our members feel strongly that the structure and integrity of the tri-councils should be maintained under this new organization, a recommendation also made by the advisory panel on the federal research support system. The tri-councils are integral to Canada's research ecosystem, supporting the specific needs of the STEM, the social sciences and the health sciences communities.

Their governance structure includes strong academic representation, which enhances understanding of the research process and needs. We recommend that the capstone agency include academic representation in its structure and that any new internal grant review committees also comprise academic subject matter experts. We must ensure that the cost of administrating this new agency does not take away from existing research funding capacity in Canada.

Second, let's improve our system where there's room to improve it.

The stated goals of the new agency are to modernize and to bring more coordination, cohesion and agility to Canada's research funding system. To meet these important goals and to maximize the positive impact of this reform, we must minimize any administrative burden and ensure ongoing research remains unhindered. Adding layers of bureaucracy would negatively impact accessibility for researchers and would limit the participation of smaller institutions, which already face significant burdens and often lack capacity to support researchers in this regard.

Our members recommend that the new agency make funding applications and reporting processes more efficient by implementing either a universal grant management portal or a data management system. The agency should also look for opportunities to decrease the existing administrative burden and to provide additional supports to institutions to address them.

Finally, one of the objectives of the capstone agency is to strengthen Canada's ability to support mission-driven research. Our members support the value of mission-driven research, but it's important to emphasize the importance of making sure that investigator-led discovery research is not pushed to the wayside. Investigator-led research can lead to discoveries that address future problems. Canada also needs this kind of research to preserve academic independence and the integrity of the research process.

As the government moves forward with the creation of its new agency and the modernization of the system, it should continue to be guided by regular, sustained consultations with researchers, institutions and stakeholders, as well as by findings from the independent “Report of the Advisory Panel on the Federal Research Support System”.

Thank you for the opportunity to speak to you today.

I'm ready to answer your questions.

[The Chair, Liberal, Valerie Bradford]

Thank you very much to all of our witnesses for your opening statements.

We will now turn to our first round of questions.

We'll ask MP Viersen to please begin for six minutes.

[Arnold Viersen, Conservative, Peace River—Westlock, AB]

Thank you, Madam Chair

I want to thank the witnesses for being here.

My first set of questions is for Ms. Johnston from College and Institutes Canada.

We've been talking a lot in Parliament about building homes, and I have in front of me a report from Colleges and Institutes Canada. Right off the top, it was about equipping Canada's skilled workforce to build the homes. I want to thank you for this report, and it looks like your organization and the people you represent can definitely help with building the homes.

What's interesting is that the Government of Canada has supported a study on how to tax homes, how to get home equity tax out, and they spent $250,000 on this study. The Canadian Taxpayers Federation has uncovered this, and we're concerned about the fact that perhaps, on the one hand, it's funding good research and initiatives on the work that you do, and on the other hand, it's exactly the opposite.

Do you think that taxpayer-funded research on how to tax the value out of people's homes is a good use of Canadian taxpayers' money?

[Pari Johnston]

Thanks for the question.

I'll focus on the issue you raised with respect to the ideas we put forward about how to build more homes in Canada.

The investments by the government to date in terms of the Canadian housing strategy have been very important. In our report, we talked about the fact that the ability to build those homes requires attention to workforce development. This is where we're seeing incredible challenges with respect to impending retirements.

The average age of a construction worker is 55 years right now. One of the issues we raised was how we can work with the Canadian public college system to develop more pre-apprentice programs to support more students choosing to go into the trades to build the homes we need.

A related issue, and an issue related to this study, is the issue of how you leverage the opportunity to build better homes faster through innovation. One of our ideas has been to set up a housing challenge fund through the applied research program at NSERC, which would set a challenge for Canadian colleges to come together to develop innovative approaches to modular housing and different ways to look at building efficiencies.

This is where I guess I would respond to the question. I think we are very interested in finding ways to leverage the capacity of the applied college system and its partnerships with industry. Housing is one of the key sectors in which our members are very active, so how can we do that to leverage the housing challenge that we have right now?

[Arnold Viersen, Conservative, Peace River—Westlock, AB]

Thank you.

You mentioned in your opening remarks that whatever we're doing must improve the daily lives of Canadians. I appreciate that. I'm just concerned about research that is going into how to tax the equity in people's homes. How does that provide value for Canadian homeowners when we have a housing shortage in this country?

Do you have any comments around that?

[Pari Johnston]

I think that one of the things.... We haven't done too much of an assessment of the particular measure you're talking about, but what I do think that we would be really well placed to focus on is how we leverage the opportunity we have through the public post-secondary system to look at where the challenges are to building more homes in this country. How can we leverage the policy capacity, the research capacity and the partnerships we have with industry and with communities to really build and to develop the multistakeholder approach to building more homes?

This is where our particular interest around a challenge fund would come in. It's really marshalling new resources to give a challenge to our post-secondaries and ask what they could come up with in terms of new ideas to support and develop new technologies, new processes, etc., to build the kind of housing supply that we need. Where are some of the policy barriers, etc.?

This is why we're so interested in the notion of more investment in mission-driven research. The housing crisis in Canada needs a mission-driven approach that we feel we could be marshalling more of our research capacity to address.

[Arnold Viersen, Conservative, Peace River—Westlock, AB]

In your opening statement, you mentioned the budget for capstone. What would you see that budget going towards? To some degree, this could be a volunteer organization with a very limited budget. You said it would be well funded. I'm not sure what you foresee with that.

[Pari Johnston]

Like my colleagues, I think what's important is that we look at how to stand up and fund a capstone organization that builds on but doesn't take away from the investments in the system to date.

How do we look at creating some stand-alone envelopes—for example, mission-driven research—that could really leverage the capacity that's been built into the system to date? Our—

[Arnold Viersen, Conservative, Peace River—Westlock, AB]

My time is coming to an end.

[Pari Johnston]

Sure.

:Mr. Arnold Viersen: I noticed that on Twitter you have a very prominent photo of you and Minister Boissonnault. I was just wondering if you discovered who the other Randy is. Did you meet the other Randy?

Thank you.

[Pari Johnston]

No, I didn't.

[Voices]

Oh, oh!

[The Chair, Liberal, Valerie Bradford]

You're lucky we don't have rules as to relevance, but anyway....

[Arnold Viersen, Conservative, Peace River—Westlock, AB]

I think my time is up, Madam Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Valerie Bradford]

Yes, it is.

We will now turn to MP Longfield for six minutes.

[Lloyd Longfield, Liberal, Guelph, ON]

Thank you.

Thank you for launching us into this study and for the work you've all done over the summertime in the consultation process.

I'm going to start with Ms. Johnston.

It's great to see you in this role. I'm both a college grad and a university grad. There is room for both.

In fact, there now are, more and more frequently, partnerships between universities and colleges, between the theoretical and the applied. Could you comment on the changing nature of the relationships between colleges and universities and how capstone should be able to accommodate the changes?

[Pari Johnston]

Thanks for the question.

I think you've put your finger on exactly the kind of approach we're trying to encourage when we think about an opportunity to reimagine the research agenda here in Canada. How do we think about all of the different strengths that different players in the ecosystem can bring? How do we intentionally connect them by identifying the impact and outcomes we want through the research? How do we then design the program to get there?

This is why we feel mission-driven research and a mission-driven agenda are ways to do that. If you identify the challenge, things become more clear in terms of how you develop a set of tools and a mission portfolio that can incentivize colleges and universities to come to the table to play to their different strengths and bring the impact down to the end-users at the forefront.

[Lloyd Longfield, Liberal, Guelph, ON]

Thank you.

Your example of housing is excellent. In Guelph, we have auto parts manufacturing processes being applied to housing in modular construction. In fact, some of the same companies are involved on both sides. Conestoga College is involved on both sides, as well as the University of Guelph. It's very cool to see it happening on the ground. We just need to support it as well.

Mr. Gaffield, it's great to have you back. You have such rich experience in this area, having been part of the tri-council agencies as well.

I'm trying to ask a question fairly, because you might have some criticism or things that could be improved that you've already presented and could present again. That's one part of the question.

The second part is this: Thank you for bringing the U15 German delegation to Canada a few years ago, and for including me in some of those meetings. We had a German delegation on the Hill yesterday. They were talking about the Fraunhofer Institute, the Max Planck Institute, how research in Germany has evolved into several external institutes, and whether there's a lesson in what's been happening in Germany over the years.

How could that apply to capstone, and do you have any criticism of the existing system we should try to capture?

[Dr. Chad Gaffield]

The member is raising something that is very active at the moment. In fact, we are organizing, with our counterparts in the German U15, a major event in Germany in the third week of January. In fact, our transatlantic action has increased. This is for a few different reasons.

One is that, as we all learned vividly during the pandemic, research is global now, and we need to leverage each other. We need to share the world's challenges, like the pandemic, obviously, but also everything else—the environmental and digital challenges. It's all global.

Canada is very fortunate to have very good links internationally. We found this out during the pandemic when, for example, we were able to turn to our research community, which had contacts with the key scientists at Moderna, Pfizer and so on. We were able to get access to vaccines. The international dimension of research is very important. Europe, obviously—thanks to Horizon Europe—is going to become increasingly important. We are seeking the kinds of partnerships that will help all of Canada. It's going exceedingly well.

Obviously, there's a lot more to do. I think capstone fits into this, because one thing we haven't had as successfully as we might have is one door to knock on. In other words, I can remember when I was heading the Social Sciences and Humanities Research Council. We developed partnerships with our counterparts in other countries, often bringing in other Canadian agencies on certain initiatives. However, there wasn't a single door. With capstone, the idea is to have a single point of entry, so if any country would like to engage with us, they can come to that door.

To go back to the member's comment earlier, this is a way to make this more efficient and effective. We can respond more nimbly, at times, to the importance of international research collaboration for Canada's benefit.

[Lloyd Longfield, Liberal, Guelph, ON]

Thank you.

I'll quickly go to Dr. Miller on the internal connections.

The University of Guelph hosted the Minister of Agriculture last week. I was in an ag-tech discussion on how to connect all of the data going on around agriculture across Canada. Could capstone play a role in the internal connections within Canada?