Science and Research Committee on Nov. 26th, 2024

[Maria Aubrey]

Yes, as long as it addresses priorities and benefits for Canada.

[Robert Gordon Kitchen, Conservative, Souris—Moose Mountain, SK]

Great. Thank you.

That's what your organizations are doing. From your presentations, which I greatly appreciated, I will just quickly paraphrase what I heard.

For example, Dr. Adem, you talked about 11,000 researchers.

Dr. Hewitt, you talked about 70,000 researchers.

Dr. Clifford and Ms. Aubrey, I suspect that you could give me similar numbers.

That's a huge number of researchers that we're looking at for research and to come up with their funding.

Now, the reality is that what I've heard from you today, Dr. Adem, is that you're the chair of a council that's overseeing all of these bodies. From what I'm hearing—I wish that we had more time with you, or that you'd been here at the very beginning of this study—you're doing that role in collaborations and in discussions. Why would you want to have another organization that creates another bureaucracy to tell you to do what you are already doing?

[Dr. Alejandro Adem]

We are a committee. We don't have the kind of authority that you're talking about, or the budget. We have a tiny secretariat that runs it. I think the idea is to do this in such a way that it's your job to work together. It's your job to deliver on these missions. It's not because this committee is putting you together to work together. It's a natural evolution. It's inspired, as I said, by the UKRI model.

There is confusion, as Dr. Vats talked about, when there's an international event and they come to Ottawa and want to meet with all of us. They'll say that in UKRI, there's a single person—the CEO. I know her. She's the symbol of the organization. She deals with the higher government. She deals with all those issues. Then the verticals go deep into the science. When they're needed, they're brought up to work on these bigger issues.

The trick is to do this without creating an extra-huge bureaucracy. I completely agree with you on the light touch and having this be like a conductor for these councils, with that interface with the government. That is very important. That board of directors will be critical, because it has to have true representativity.

[Robert Gordon Kitchen, Conservative, Souris—Moose Mountain, SK]

Thank you.

To your point, the reality is that the money that will be put out there to create this bureaucracy would be much better spent for the research, such that you could determine, based on those facts that we talked about earlier, where that funding should be going.

I think I have only a very little time left.

[The Chair, Liberal, Valerie Bradford]

You're actually over your time. Thank you.

Now we'll turn to MP Longfield for five minutes.

[Lloyd Longfield, Liberal, Guelph, ON]

Thank you, Chair.

Thank you to all of you for being here. I feel like we have a mini capstone discussion going on, because of your agencies.

Dr. Adem, you mentioned mathematics, and that got my interest. I'm doing a master's program right now, and we're using linear regression analysis in different ways. I was looking at it from a manufacturing point of view, which was my background. What products are making the most profits? How do you determine that? What data do you need to capture?

Another person in our class was looking at nursing. Dr. Clifford, with what you've worked on in biostatistics and epidemiology, there's some tie-in there.

We're also looking at management and how you inspire people to perform. Dr. Hewitt, how do you create a culture of innovation and trust using data?

Is data the connecting link in this organization? Is it one of the main connecting links? Maybe you could speak to how you would work on the problem of trying to get people working on a complex problem that involves health, engineering and social sciences.

Dr. Adem can start.

[Dr. Alejandro Adem]

Yes, absolutely, data is at the bottom of everything. How can you have improvement if you don't know where you are?

Of course, there are issues of privacy, etc., and the quality of the data is key. Of course, AI plays a big role in moving that data forward to get results. Ethically, it's very important that the social sciences come in and inform that. In the health sciences.... I was explaining to someone why AI is interdisciplinary, because the applications of AI in health are just monumental.

You can simplify the data. Your statement is true, but it has all of these contexts and contours that have to be fleshed out.

[Lloyd Longfield, Liberal, Guelph, ON]

That's something we will deal with in terms of policy, if we can ever get our bills through the House of Commons, which is being stalled right now.

Just as a side comment, Dr. Hewitt, as we look at the social sciences, we've had the Conservatives, who are chirping right now, looking at different research projects and saying they shouldn't be funded, as if politicians would know whether they should or shouldn't be funded.

Could you talk about the importance of having the peer approach, but also how social innovation applies to other innovation?

[Dr. Ted Hewitt]

I said before in response to other questions that it's really hard to go by lists. You look at lists; you see titles, and you think, “What is that?”

In the first instance, we have to understand that applications come in from researchers; they're reviewed carefully to make sure they meet international standards, and they're funded on the basis of their quality. A critical element of that is the benefit or the impact of that research. That is always taken into consideration.

One piece of advice that Mr. Vats gave previously is that it's important to talk to the researchers themselves and ask why this is important to them. It will be important to them, and it will be important within a community of 70,000 researchers—at least to some of them—and it will be important to some Canadians.

I was telling you a story earlier in reference to the earlier comment about Mexico. I'm a student of Brazil. Nobody really wanted to know anything about Brazil at the time when I was working, but all of a sudden we were in a trade war with Brazil, and Global Affairs was calling me as a resident expert. I was subsequently appointed to a committee to help manage the relationship with Brazil. When nobody cared.... You just never know.

[Lloyd Longfield, Liberal, Guelph, ON]

All of a sudden, an epidemic hit.

Maybe I could go over to Dr. Clifford. From a one health perspective, and looking at antimicrobial resistance, which I hope our committee will pick up a study on at some point, the one health approach and antimicrobial resistance are a key part of what humanity is facing right now as a risk.

How do you keep on top of the epidemics we are facing? Could you talk about the importance of that in a big, mission-driven discussion, please?

[Dr. Tammy Clifford]

Thank you so much for the question. As the idea of the capstone first came about, people were wondering what might be a mission. Many people would have pointed back to the COVID-19 pandemic, when, as you heard, there were a number of mechanisms created at the time because we didn't have them. You've mentioned AMR. We've also heard about AI and its various uses.

In terms of your specific question around one health and AMR, certainly for the CIHR, continuing to work strongly with our colleagues in the health portfolio, with the Public Health Agency of Canada again being the lead for the plan on antimicrobial resistance....

I also want to mention that the CIHR is the home of a centre for research on pandemic preparedness and health emergencies. Again, that group has a steering committee. You spoke about governance. That is linked not only to federal partners, such as the Public Health Agency and the CFIA, but also to provincial and territorial individuals.

It's not an easy thing to do these days, but there are those mechanisms.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Valerie Bradford]

We now turn to MP Blanchette-Joncas for two and a half minutes, please.

[Maxime Blanchette-Joncas, Bloc, Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Mr. Labrie, the Social Sciences and Humanities Research Council, or SSHRC, uses effective strategies to promote scientific publication in French. How could the new capstone organization tailor those strategies to disciplines such as the natural sciences, health and engineering? How could the new organization be equally as effective?

[Normand Labrie]

SSHRC has funding programs for scientific publications and journals, including a number in French. Through the research partnerships program, collaboration is also possible with the scientific community, civil society, industry and various other stakeholders. Those are ways of promoting the development and dissemination of knowledge in French. That is happening in social sciences and humanities research.

An umbrella organization overseeing the three research areas could use similar approaches to foster more scientific publication and research in French in the natural sciences, health and other fields.

[Maxime Blanchette-Joncas, Bloc, Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Labrie.

Mr. Hewitt, how do you plan to support an efficient and swift transition to the new funding structure that will take the form of the capstone research funding organization? Do you have a specific plan? What measures do you plan to deploy to support the transition?

[Dr. Ted Hewitt]

The plan is to consult and work closely with ISED to help set up the new research funding organization. We will follow its lead in terms of how to proceed and what the next steps are. It will also depend on the government, which has to pass the legislation before the new organization can be established.

[Maxime Blanchette-Joncas, Bloc, Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC]

Would you say you're ready to set up the new organization at this point?

[Dr. Ted Hewitt]

Yes, I would say so. We are ready to work closely with ISED and the government to set up the new organization.

[Maxime Blanchette-Joncas, Bloc, Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC]

Your team is ready, then.

Is that right?

[Dr. Ted Hewitt]

Yes, that's right.

[Maxime Blanchette-Joncas, Bloc, Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC]

What about your team, Mr. Adem?

[Dr. Alejandro Adem]

We are ready.

[Maxime Blanchette-Joncas, Bloc, Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC]

How about you, Ms. Clifford?

[Dr. Tammy Clifford]

We are ready.

[The Chair, Liberal, Valerie Bradford]

That's a nice way to end that round.

MP Cannings, you have the final two and a half minutes.