Science and Research Committee on June 2nd, 2022

[Ken Hartwick]

Thank you. I will rejoin.

[The Chair, Liberal, Kirsty Duncan]

Again, I apologize.

With that, dear colleagues, I will again thank all our witnesses.

We are grateful to all of you for your time and effort, and we are now going to go to members' questions.

This time, we will start with six-minute rounds, and we begin with Ms. Gladu.

The floor is yours.

[Marilyn Gladu, Conservative, Sarnia—Lambton, ON]

Thank you, Chair, and thank you, witnesses.

I would ask Mr. Hartwick if he could submit a written brief of the comments he wanted to make. That would be very well received.

I'm going to start with a question for Mr. Rencheck.

You talked about a few of the projects—the Weston project and the SMR projects. Have you experienced any difficulties with those projects from a regulatory point of view?

[Michael Rencheck]

At Bruce Power, we're supporting OPG and Westinghouse in the development of those projects. Initially, in getting started, there has been some difficulty within the CNSC in obtaining funding to be able to staff up to process the licences for those projects. However, that's been remedied in the last budget, and I understand that this is beginning to move forward at a very good pace.

Part of the global network of small modular reactors, and particularly the memorandum of understanding between Canada and the United States on nuclear co-operation, would allow the harmonization of cross-border standards, so that the efforts to accelerate the licensing process and share information from the regulators, as well as the suppliers, would help to speed that up.

That regulatory framework is currently being considered to be modernized. As that progresses, it will certainly enhance the ability to license new reactors. That process is just getting started and really needs to keep pace and accelerate in order to meet our climate change needs.

[Marilyn Gladu, Conservative, Sarnia—Lambton, ON]

Excellent.

As you know, we expect to see an increase in the demand for power and electricity, from electric cars to new plants that are going to be formed. Do you have any concerns about the demand that's headed towards us?

[Michael Rencheck]

Yes, when you look at the demand, it's projected to increase by two to five times. The issue of importance will be around power density: the ability to generate massive amounts of power to be able to supply industries and transportation.

As we look at the electricity market, we're going to need all forms of clean energy going forward. Power density and capacity will be needed to ensure that we're not misusing land requirements that could be better used for farming or other production, while at the same time meeting the needs of citizens.

[Marilyn Gladu, Conservative, Sarnia—Lambton, ON]

Very good.

Mr. Plummer, you talked about the need for government to streamline policies. Could you elaborate on that?

[Brett Plummer]

Yes. The policy we were referencing specifically was more around the environmental impact associated with licensing the first of a kind—and even more of a concern in my mind is the nth of a kind—as we build out.

[Marilyn Gladu, Conservative, Sarnia—Lambton, ON]

Is that the assessment from Bill C-69?

[Brett Plummer]

Yes, Bill C-69. That's correct.

One of our technologies, the first of a kind, fits within the project list. It basically will go through an existing environmental assessment utilizing the province and the CNSC, but as you build out, especially with Moltex, which has a larger capacity, and also with fuel conversion, it really falls into the impact assessment of Bill C-69, as well as the additional units associated with our ARC clean energy, the other technology. Presently, this is a long process, so we're looking for ways not to get around the process but to streamline it.

The other aspect, to your question associated with Mr. Rencheck, is that the CNSC, the regulator, has been extremely co-operative to this day and, as Mr. Rencheck said, is ramping up, but again, we need to look ahead to the future with the build-out and building the nth of a kind, and we're not going to be able to go through the same process for the nth of a kind versus the first of a kind. Once the reactor design is standardized and has been reviewed and approved, really the only assessment at that point should be around any changes associated with the site characteristics or location.

[Marilyn Gladu, Conservative, Sarnia—Lambton, ON]

Excellent.

You spoke of the road map for nuclear technology. What can the federal government do to accelerate our progress into nuclear?

[Brett Plummer]

At this point, the number one thing is to attract private investment. We need additional financial support.

At present, we've had a lot of difficulty in gaining that financial support for small modular reactors. We need to carve out a specific allocation to have the seed money to help us get through vendor design review and regulatory reviews, and also to get through some of the preliminary design.

Once we do that, then the private investment sees the commitment from the Canadian government and is ready to invest. We need that financial seed money, that carve-out. We also need financial guarantees, and we need financial backstops.

[Marilyn Gladu, Conservative, Sarnia—Lambton, ON]

Very good.

I have one last question for Mr. Rencheck. We've seen a lot of supply chain issues across the country. Have you had difficulty, from a supply chain perspective, in your industry?

[Michael Rencheck]

Canada has a made-in-Canada solution for nuclear. Our supply chain is predominantly in New Brunswick, Ontario and Saskatchewan. We are able to fully supply—we were, even through the pandemic—and continue with our refurbishment projects, which are progressing on time and on budget and really serving the needs of all Ontario citizens.

That supply chain being here, in Canada, is very unique in the world. We can build and construct nuclear plants here, with Canadian citizens, creating great jobs and great economic development, even in rural areas. It's a fantastic opportunity for jobs.

As an example, over the last several years, we've had 21,000 applications for 1,000 positions—

[The Chair, Liberal, Kirsty Duncan]

I'm sorry, Mr. Rencheck. I'm going to have to interrupt.

[Marilyn Gladu, Conservative, Sarnia—Lambton, ON]

We're out of time.

That's tremendous. Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Kirsty Duncan]

I'm sorry. Ms. Gladu, thank you so much for the questions.

Colleagues, we do our best to be fair to members and all of our witnesses. If you would like to invite Mr. Hartwick back, members, that's an option. As Ms. Gladu said, he could submit his remarks, but if any of you want to get a question to him on the record and ask for a written submission, that is possible as well.

We will now go to Monsieur Lauzon for six minutes.

[Stéphane Lauzon, Liberal, Argenteuil—La Petite-Nation, QC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

First and foremost, I want to thank all the witnesses.

I would also like to thank Mr. Hardwick. I'm really disappointed we couldn't hear him speak.

I would like to put a first question to Mr. Rencheck.

When you talked about your technologies, you talked about wind turbines, but you also talked about nuclear power. Is your company transitioning from wind power to small modular reactors or is that part of a whole that is moving forward in terms of technology?

You're on mute. We can't hear you.

[Michael Rencheck]

I'm sorry. I have hearing difficulties. I had a very hard time hearing the translation on my end, but I will answer the question that I believe I heard, which relates to wind power and small modular reactors.

When I look at an energy system, I think you'll need to have a balance of both intermittent resources and reliable baseload generation. When you get an overcommitment in one category of intermittency and we're subject to extreme weather events, like the one that happened in Texas a year ago.... About 180 people died because of the intermittent sources and their dependencies on other technologies.

I think there's a way to complement both the intermittent sources and the baseload sources to create a stable, reliable and resilient electricity grid that's producing clean energy. That comes from a diverse portfolio of generation sources that would include solar, wind, nuclear and carbon capture with sequestration, among other technologies. It would be regionally sized and allocated for those regions that have the resources to utilize it, including hydro.

[Stéphane Lauzon, Liberal, Argenteuil—La Petite-Nation, QC]

Thank you. I will try to speak a bit slower, so that the interpreters can understand me properly.

My second question is once again for you, Mr. Rencheck.

A report from Stanford University and the University of British Columbia we received yesterday clearly shows that small modular reactors produce from two to 30 times more nuclear waste than traditional nuclear power plants over the long term. You talked about net-zero emissions.

Does your technology make it possible to achieve net-zero emissions or should this study be reviewed? Can you explain the nuance between the two?

[Michael Rencheck]

Again, is that question for me? I'm having a very difficult time hearing. If it is, I can answer that question.

The first thing—

[Stéphane Lauzon, Liberal, Argenteuil—La Petite-Nation, QC]

I can repeat it very quickly, if you want.

Yesterday, a study conducted by Stanford in collaboration with the University of British Columbia was published and showed that in the long term, small nuclear reactors would produce two to 30 times more nuclear waste.

Could this kind of revelation—led by top Canadian and American scientists—cause you to reconsider your position on small nuclear reactors?

[Michael Rencheck]

First, the study was just released yesterday. You may have also seen a letter by Dr. Reyes, who was the inventor, and also faculty at the University of Oregon, who predominantly stated that the assumptions used in that study for the NuScale small modular reactor were in fact incorrect. In his letter, he outlined that it is not accurate and therefore should be disregarded.

With that already issued by the inventor of the NuScale technology, I think that report needs to be examined in detail before any conclusions would be drawn from it or actions taken from it.

[Stéphane Lauzon, Liberal, Argenteuil—La Petite-Nation, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Rencheck.

Mr. Plummer, you have a lot of experience and have been working in the energy sector for a very long time. You talked about cogeneration technology, where heat is recovered to produce electricity.

Can you tell us a bit about that technology? Are steam turbines used?

Can you tell us about how heat is recovered to be transformed into energy?

[Brett Plummer]

The small modular reactors we are developing operate at a high temperature, somewhere in the order of 600°C. This is very conducive to industrial heat.

I will just make a point. When we think about small modular reactors, we think predominantly electricity, but we really need to think energy. Then we think solar, wind, nuclear, when we really need to think about the integration of all of this energy into energy packages, energy farms, because of the intermittency of solar and wind and, basically, the backstop of nuclear.

This high temperature from nuclear can help generate hydrogen and ammonia, which is a hydrogen carrier. It can also be stored in solar salts. You can store a tremendous amount of energy. You could help to take care of the peaks on the electrical grid. You can also take advantage of when the wind is blowing and the sun is shining to use that energy as you see fit, and distort, potentially....

These high-temperature reactors can be used in many different ways to support the transformation and generation of clean fuels and the electrification—