Science and Research Committee on June 16th, 2022

[Richard Cannings, NDP, South Okanagan—West Kootenay, BC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

I'll just let Mr. Tucker continue on with that line, because I'm curious to know what the answer is, especially with your just having started the feasibility study, which would give us the answers that we really need to know before we jump into the deep end here.

What are the timelines on that feasibility study? For instance, when will we know when it will be economically feasible for a small community or a mine site to say, “I want an SMR,” rather than, “I want renewable energy,” or, “I want to continue on with diesel.” When will we know those answers?

[Dave Tucker]

The feasibility study for our deployment will run for about 18 months, and that will answer some of these general questions. The most important question it will answer will be on the pathway to a campus deployment or a near-campus deployment for the university, which will let us start building experience with this relatively new technology and start introducing it to communities and getting our economists, our business school and our social scientists involved in the project of seeing how an SMR works in a community.

It is a new thing, so it's going to take some time. We don't have the answers, but in the meantime, it's moving forward and there are other ways to move forward, like building micro modular reactor-ready energy-distribution systems in communities, so that as the experience comes in, as we're ready, we can replace the greenhouse gas-generating combined heat and power plants that are at the heart of those with small and micro modular reactors.

[Richard Cannings, NDP, South Okanagan—West Kootenay, BC]

Thanks.

I will move on to Mr. Hartwick in terms of what.... These are difficult questions about casting ahead into the future with a brand new technology, but what are your projections for the role that SMRs will play by, say, 2030, 2040 and 2050?

The Canada Energy Regulator report last year, “Canada's Energy Future 2021”, showed a rather modest contribution or modest increase in nuclear until 2050.

How many communities and mine sites will have SMRs by 2050, realistically?

[Ken Hartwick]

Let me start with.... The one premise at Darlington is that we plan to have the first reactor operational in 2028, so it's not too far away. We will have done the refurbishment of our Darlington reactors in 2026. The cost of those is a little over eight cents per kilowatt hour. They are highly competitive with any other form of technology for the baseload.

What we will then do concurrently is begin to work with communities on both the grid-scale SMRs and the micro SMRs to determine which communities are relevant and want to participate and build that over time.

One of the key things that was touched on—and I agree with the premise—is that once you get to about 10 microreactors, we are going to have something very feasible, and we're going to be able to see it. We see it at Darlington right now. We're spending $12.8 billion. As we've refurbished the four reactors, they're coming in around 12% to 15% cheaper as we go from one reactor to the next. That's just learning, knowledge, efficiency and the skill of our workforce in Ontario, which is amazing.

[Richard Cannings, NDP, South Okanagan—West Kootenay, BC]

On the eight cents per kilowatt hour, was that the legacy reactors, the big reactors, or was that—

[Ken Hartwick]

Those are the big reactors. We would anticipate on an SMR level for grid-scale SMRs that they're probably in or around the 10 cents range.

[Richard Cannings, NDP, South Okanagan—West Kootenay, BC]

Is that after you build 10, or...?

[Ken Hartwick]

We will do that at our Darlington site. We are working toward achieving that level of cost.

[Richard Cannings, NDP, South Okanagan—West Kootenay, BC]

Does that include the $12 billion...?

[Ken Hartwick]

It's separate and distinct. It's $12.8 billion to finish the four big reactors—

[Richard Cannings, NDP, South Okanagan—West Kootenay, BC]

Okay.

[Ken Hartwick]

—and then, for our smaller modular ones, which we are building beside the big ones, we think they will ultimately come in at that 10 cents to 11 cents range.

[Richard Cannings, NDP, South Okanagan—West Kootenay, BC]

How much time do I have left? I forgot to....

[The Chair, Liberal, Kirsty Duncan]

You have a minute and a half, Mr. Cannings.

[Richard Cannings, NDP, South Okanagan—West Kootenay, BC]

I'll ask the two Daves here about training.

How much training is involved in operating an SMR, say, if it's in a small community or a mine?

[Dr. David Novog]

It takes a large number of engineers and operators at the Darlington site to run a unit. I think one of the major goals in SMRs is a simplification of the design and operations, so that the load of people you need to manage that reactor on a daily basis is much reduced and can be accomplished by training a local workforce that will be on shift and gainfully employed in the operation of the reactor.

The complement of people will be lower than at a large site, but will still be appreciable. I don't have a formal number or an assessment from any vendor, but I would imagine you'd need six or 10 people to be around to do the checks, check out equipment and do those kinds of things. That's the type of direct employment.

When we look at studies at McMaster, for example, what we would really like to use is the waste heat. We would like to see large agriculture attached to these reactors to be able to utilize that waste heat to grow strawberries in a climate in which you can't grow strawberries.

[Richard Cannings, NDP, South Okanagan—West Kootenay, BC]

Quickly, though, what's the—

[The Chair, Liberal, Kirsty Duncan]

I'm sorry, Mr. Cannings. Would you like to ask for a written response?

[Richard Cannings, NDP, South Okanagan—West Kootenay, BC]

I wanted to know what kind of training is needed for those six or eight people.

[The Chair, Liberal, Kirsty Duncan]

I hate to tell you, but you've come to the end.

Would you like a written response?

[Richard Cannings, NDP, South Okanagan—West Kootenay, BC]

Maybe if I can get my two and a half at the end—

[The Chair, Liberal, Kirsty Duncan]

Thank you, Mr. Cannings.

Thank you to you all. It's a good discussion.

We're going to go to the five-minute round. We're pleased to welcome Mr. Van Popta tonight.

I understand you're going to be splitting your time with Mr. Tochor. The floor is yours.

[Tako Van Popta, Conservative, Langley—Aldergrove, BC]

I have one quick question. I'm from British Columbia, where, as you will all know, we generate a lot of electricity using hydro.

I think this is for Ken Hartwick. I'm wondering what the economics are to compare small nuclear reactors to large hydro dams, which require hundreds of kilometres of transmission lines from the Peace Country to Vancouver.

It's a wide open question. Compare the two.

[Ken Hartwick]

The way we compare it is that for the next new development in Ontario—this was one of the questions from a member earlier—it'll be further north, and therefore you have to build transmission to bring it south, where most of the load is required. You're probably looking at 15 cents a kilowatt hour to bring it, because Niagara Falls is already developed.

That's why we say that nuclear is very competitive with baseload, but I also think we need all of it. There is no one technology that solves this problem: It is every technology, if Canada is going to achieve its goals.

[Tako Van Popta, Conservative, Langley—Aldergrove, BC]

Thank you.