Science and Research Committee on Sept. 26th, 2022

[Maxime Blanchette-Joncas, Bloc, Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

I would like to welcome the witnesses with us this evening, as well as my colleagues.

My first question is for Mr. Bernier, from the Department of Natural Resources.

Mr. Bernier, in your remarks, you mentioned that Canada should position itself as a world leader in the production of small modular nuclear reactors. You spoke of demand and a global potential of $150 billion.

I’m trying to understand the situation to clarify some things. Several countries have already produced small modular nuclear reactors, including China, South Korea, Russia and the United States. The Americans asked the Department of Energy to commission a report on various small modular nuclear reactor designs. The report concluded that small modular nuclear reactors would not be operational by the end of the decade. Even in 2022, there is not a single small modular nuclear reactor in the United States ready for commercial use.

All of the countries I’ve named have tried to market small modular nuclear reactors on a global scale. We know that there may be potential demand. However, these countries have not successfully marketed this type of reactor.

I would like to know how Canada will differ from countries who, for several years, have already tried to sell small modular nuclear reactors.

[André Bernier]

When I think about the potential role that Canada could play as an SMR provider.... You will see as an example right now Ontario Power Generation's decision to select the GE Hitachi, BWRX-300 reactor, which is built off an existing reactor design involving two major industrial partners, General Electric and Hitachi. It may not be the case that there will be a Canadian reactor that would be exported and used worldwide, but the first deployment of this reactor that I mentioned will occur at the Darlington site in Canada. Already there's significant interest not just within Canada—Saskatchewan, for example—but outside of Canada as well, in Poland and Estonia, for use of that reactor.

The economic opportunity is linked not just to whoever makes the reactor, but also to the supply chains that support that. In this case, because this will be the first grid-scale deployment of an SMR in the west, it positions Canada, we hope, very favourably to benefit from that if others choose to adopt this particular reactor technology.

There's no disagreement. This is not something that will make a material difference before the end of the decade. It's not something where we expect SMRs to contribute on a large scale to the achievement of the 2030 goal. Even by 2035, it's likely that we'll see a very small number of SMRs deployed in Canada, but beyond that point, as we look toward what we expect to be a very significant expansion of the electricity system in Canada but also globally to meet the needs of a decarbonized economy, that's where there could be a very significant role for SMRs, and Canada as a leader in terms of demonstrating this technology. I mentioned the Darlington site, and there's the Global First Power project at Chalk River.

We hope that we're favourably positioned to benefit over time.

[Maxime Blanchette-Joncas, Bloc, Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC]

Thank you very much.

My next question is for representatives of the Canadian Nuclear Safety Commission.

The commission’s role is to regulate the nuclear energy industry and ensure nuclear safety, but also to develop nuclear energy in Canada.

How do you ensure that there are no conflicts of interest within the current structure of nuclear governance?

[Caroline Ducros]

The CNSC's mandate is clearly about the regulation of nuclear energy during the full life cycle of nuclear: from mining and milling, through processing, power plants and medical isotopes, to waste management and decommissioning. We don't have a mandate as a proponent for any type of technology. We review the technologies that come to us to ensure that, whatever we recommend to the commission, we have used a scientific basis and had a robust review of full and complete information. Then, if we're not ready to recommend it to the commission because we don't think it's safe, we will not, but we don't have a development mandate.

[Maxime Blanchette-Joncas, Bloc, Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC]

The Department of Natural Resources would not have mandated you to develop nuclear energy in Canada. Is that correct?

[Caroline Ducros]

That's correct. Our role as a world-class nuclear regulator is to be efficient and effective in our regulatory process, in our reviews of licensing applications and in our compliance verification. Our role is not to develop.

We also have another role in terms of disseminating scientific information to the public, and sometimes this would mean debunking, but we don't have a role in developing power.

[Maxime Blanchette-Joncas, Bloc, Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC]

Can you explain the mechanisms you use to ensure citizens’ safety when implementing and developing nuclear interests in Canada?

[Caroline Ducros]

Madam Chair, I wonder if I could have a reframing of the question.

[The Chair, Liberal, Kirsty Duncan]

Monsieur Blanchette-Joncas, you can have a short question. Perhaps you can ask the witness to table the answer, please.

[Maxime Blanchette-Joncas, Bloc, Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC]

Indeed, I ask that the answer be tabled, because I suspect it’s going to take more than a few seconds to explain it all. I will repeat the question.

What mechanism does the Canadian Nuclear Safety Commission have in place to ensure citizens’ safety when developing and using nuclear power in Canada?

[The Chair, Liberal, Kirsty Duncan]

Thank you, Mr. Blanchette-Joncas.

With that, now we will go to Ms. Idlout.

We're glad you've joined us. You have six minutes.

[Lori Idlout, NDP, Nunavut, NU]

Qujannamiik, iksivautaq.

I'm so used to having an Inuktitut interpreter that I almost started speaking in Inuktitut. I will rejig my brain.

I wanted to direct my question to Amy Gottschling first. In regard to the size of a reactor, what would be the average size of a reactor that would be necessary to power rural or remote communities? For example, in Inuvik, which has a population of about 3,243, there are two power plants. One is diesel-powered, with a total capacity of 6.2 megawatts, and one is gas-powered, housing three gas-fuelled generators rated at 2.8 megawatts.

Nakurmiik.

[Amy Gottschling]

Thank you for the question.

The size of the reactors that are geared for remote deployment would be around the five-megawatt range. The beauty of the SMRs is that you can plug and play if you need more than one to cover the energy needs you have. It sounds like you would need two of those.

[Lori Idlout, NDP, Nunavut, NU]

Could you provide an example of what kind of waste management would need to happen?

[Amy Gottschling]

The solution we have in place right now for the current reactors in Ontario is quite sound, and the disposal solutions we have in place and the policies we have in place would also be applied to SMRs.

[Lori Idlout, NDP, Nunavut, NU]

Thank you.

My next question will be for Caroline Ducros, with the commission.

Have there been any discussions about the training of indigenous people to support the development of such SMRs? Also, what kinds of opportunities would there be to ensure that indigenous people would be able to operate them?

[Caroline Ducros]

Thank you for the question.

A lot of the opportunities in terms of operating SMRs would have to be led by industry. They will be the ones who come forward with applications and are operators of facilities. In terms of training, my expectation would be for the proponent to do that also.

From a regulatory perspective, we have a duty to consult, and we have a very large duty, a commitment, to enter into relationships in collaboration with indigenous people when it comes to licensing reviews and compliance verification.

We're not the operators, so I would put the onus on the proponents to undertake that type of activity.

Perhaps I'll pass this to Mr. Bernier in terms of the policies on equity and hiring.

[André Bernier]

Thank you very much, Madam Chair.

I will briefly mention that, as part of our work under the SMR action plan, we established an indigenous advisory council. In fact, next week, the SMR leadership table will be meeting—deputy ministers and utility heads. It will be co-chaired, for the first time, by a member of the indigenous advisory council. One of the reasons for this is exactly as you described: to make sure that, as part of the conversation, we're able to look at potential opportunities for indigenous communities or development organizations, including on the skills training side and in terms of potential ownership stakes in any projects.

I think there's a whole other conversation to be had about community acceptance. I would like to acknowledge that, but I wanted to briefly mention the work of the council.

[Lori Idlout, NDP, Nunavut, NU]

Thank you.

I have a question for all three witnesses. It doesn't matter to me in which order they answer.

I note that all three witnesses mentioned they've had indigenous engagement, but they didn't let us know what indigenous nations, government organizations, or whatever they've had engagement with. I wonder if they could list those for us.

Qujannamiik.

[André Bernier]

Madam Chair, I'm on screen, so perhaps I could kick us off.

As part of the SMR action plan, Natural Resources Canada carried out fairly extensive engagement at the community level, though it was primarily targeted at communities that were either close to existing nuclear sites or might be implicated—

[Lori Idlout, NDP, Nunavut, NU]

I'm sorry. I'm interrupting because I just asked for a list of the indigenous organizations or nations you've engaged with.

[André Bernier]

Perhaps we could follow up and provide a list, if that's acceptable.

[The Chair, Liberal, Kirsty Duncan]

Yes, table it with the committee.

Thank you so much.

[Lori Idlout, NDP, Nunavut, NU]

Thank you.

Am I out of time?

[The Chair, Liberal, Kirsty Duncan]

You have 20 seconds.