Science and Research Committee on Oct. 31st, 2022

[Dr. Nipun Vats]

I would defer to the councils to confirm this, but I know that certainly for the governance committees that review the integrity of the processes, it is required. I can say that with authority, because I'm on some of those committees. I know that at least in the case of some of the large programs with large awards, there's not only systemic bias training, but there are often subcommittees of the peer-review committee that are actually focused on issues of equity. There are multiple layers to this, but when it comes to whether it's required across the board for all review committees, I think I might have to turn to my colleagues at the councils to confirm.

[The Chair, Liberal, Kirsty Duncan]

Thank you very much, Mr. Collins.

To our witnesses again, we are grateful for your being here.

We will now go to Monsieur Blanchette-Joncas for six minutes.

[Maxime Blanchette-Joncas, Bloc, Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

I would like to welcome the witnesses who are joining us for the third hour.

Mr. Vats, does your department recognize that scientific publishing in French in Canada is in free fall at present?

[Dr. Nipun Vats]

You did say "in free fall"?

[Maxime Blanchette-Joncas, Bloc, Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC]

Exactly.

[Dr. Nipun Vats]

I don't understand what that means.

[Maxime Blanchette-Joncas, Bloc, Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC]

"In free fall" means that there is a decline in research and scientific publication in French.

[Dr. Nipun Vats]

I'm sorry, I haven't seen those figures and I'm not familiar with this.

[Maxime Blanchette-Joncas, Bloc, Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC]

Right. I would ask your department to send us an answer on that point.

I am going to provide you with some data, since you are not familiar with it. Between 1980 and 2014, publishing in French in the natural and medical sciences declined by 25 per cent. A decline has also been observed in the social sciences and humanities, of about 20 per cent over the last 40 years.

You talked about equitable treatment for the two official languages. Can you provide us with the funding data you have? Is it proportional and equitable as between the two official languages, French and English, in the granting agencies?

[Dr. Nipun Vats]

I have some statistics here that I could give you, if I can find them. I don't know whether Ms. La Traverse might have some of her own.

[Maxime Blanchette-Joncas, Bloc, Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC]

You can just tell us whether you have observed a trend.

At present, is funding between French and English equitable, for scientific research in Canada?

[Dr. Nipun Vats]

I think so. I find that the average success rate for applications in French is approximately equal or even better, in some cases, than the rate for applications in English. It depends on the number of applications submitted in the two languages.

[Maxime Blanchette-Joncas, Bloc, Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC]

As you say, the success rate is not necessarily a figure to base a determination on, since the percentage of applications in French is far from sky high. It is practically nonexistent, even, for some granting agencies: only ten per cent of applications submitted to the Natural Sciences and Engineering Research Council of Canada are made in French.

What is your department doing to reverse that decline?

[Dr. Nipun Vats]

If I may, I am going to answer in English, because it will be easier for me. I apologize. Sometimes, it is a bit difficult for me to manage in French on certain subjects, like this one.

The language of publication or language of application is somewhat reflective of the language of work in a discipline as well. I would like to hope, although I don't have evidence to this effect, that applicants who are francophone, if they choose to apply in English, it's reflective of the fact that their work environment, when it comes to communication of scientific knowledge, is more in English than in French. This may be the nature of certain disciplines of research.

To be honest, I don't have enough detailed data to be able to validate that. I can certainly say that when it comes to the natural sciences and engineering disciplines, the vast majority of research communication is done in English. It may be the case that this influences the choice of language of the application itself. Again, that is not based on analysis.

[Maxime Blanchette-Joncas, Bloc, Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Vats. Im going to try to ask you more precise questions. You can share your data with us then.

I want to come back to funding applications received by the granting agencies. I am trying to learn whether there is an imbalance when it comes to the proportions in French and English, not for the success rate, but for the amounts awarded for each official language. Can you provide us with the relevant data covering the last 20 years?

I also want to talk about the share of research funding that is allocated to francophone and anglophone universities, not just in Quebec, but also in francophone minority communities. Have you noticed a trend develop in the last 20 years? I would like an answer from your department on that subject.

I want to come back to the example of the Natural Sciences and Engineering Research Council of Canada. The fact is that 50 per cent of francophones in Canada decide to submit an application in English. Has your department observed this? What measures and mechanisms have been put in place by your department to encourage francophones by enabling them to submit their applications in their language and do research and publish in the official language of their choice?

[Dr. Nipun Vats]

When it comes to the data, I think our colleagues at NSERC and SSHRC would be well positioned to provide it. I don't know if you have the full time series of data, but they would be well placed to provide that. The ministry itself doesn't actually hold that information. It would be with the councils. I don't want to speak for my colleagues, but to the extent that it's available, I think they would be able to share that.

On your question in terms of the actions to support applications in both official languages, I think the councils have made a real effort to ensure that, when it comes to peer review, there is a linguistic representation on review committees that tries to ensure the assessment is equitable in both languages. Whether that needs to be better communicated is another question, to ensure that people are not choosing to apply in English because of a concern that this is not the case—

[The Chair, Liberal, Kirsty Duncan]

I'm sorry to interrupt.

Thank you, Monsieur Blanchette-Joncas.

Again, I really want to thank our witnesses, who are so gracious with their time.

We will go to Mr. Cannings for six minutes, please.

[Richard Cannings, NDP, South Okanagan—West Kootenay, BC]

Thank you.

Thank you to both witnesses.

I want to follow up on some of the questions Monsieur Blanchette-Joncas was asking, perhaps with Ms. La Traverse of SSHRC.

We've heard from NSERC. Monsieur Fortin gave us an example. I think it was that 26% of applicants were francophone, but only 10% of the applications were in French. He gave some data, which I think was restricted to McGill and the University of Ottawa, that the French applications there for NSERC had greater success than the English applications.

I'm wondering if SSHRC has similar data. Maybe you're not aware of the exact numbers today, but perhaps we could get a written answer in the near future from SSHRC for those data. What is the proportion of applications to SSHRC from francophones, how many are presented in French and how many are in English proportionately, and what is the success rate of those different applications, French versus English? Is that something we could get for the committee?

[Valérie La Traverse]

Yes, absolutely. I could tell you that for the last 10 years the application rates in French for all our programs range from 15% to 19%, and it really depends on the particular program or financing opportunity. Those numbers have been quite steady over the last 10 years.

In terms of the award rate for applications in French, again we've seen that they've been quite steady. It ranges from 14% to 26%, again, depending on the funding opportunity. We tend to have a higher award rate for our partnership programs, but that could be due to a number of factors. All that is to say that it's been quite steady over the last 10 years. We haven't really seen a lot of dips or any free-falling, as was referred to earlier.

I would also say that in the year 2021-22, and I'd invite.... I'm happy to provide you with our report on competitions, but we actually saw a higher success rate in the aggregate among French applicants last year. Again, we do an evaluation, a review and a report every year on all our competitions, broken down by funding opportunity, programs, language and French language, so I think you'd find that quite interesting.

[Richard Cannings, NDP, South Okanagan—West Kootenay, BC]

You also mentioned some of the cross—I don't know what the term would be—initiatives like Canada research chairs and new frontiers, which were shared among the councils. Can you perhaps comment on the issues of, say, a francophone applying for those positions or funding for those projects, and what the processes are to make sure that process is fair?

[Valérie La Traverse]

I would say that, because outside of Quebec a lot of the francophone institutions tend to be smaller institutions, we have a number of measures put in place to ensure equity. We have an institutional grant that universities receive. We also have a method of calculation under a research support fund, which is the fund for all indirect costs, for a formula that is actually favourable to smaller institutions. Smaller institutions would get a higher percentage of their indirect costs funded through the research support fund. We also have an allocation of chairs reserved for small institutions across Canada through the Canada research chairs program.

Just to give you an example, there are 10 French-language minority institutions across Canada that have Canada research chairs, and there are 66 active Canada research chairs in those 10 institutions. We also have six special Canada research chairs that are really targeted to those small institutions. The total investment for those chairs in those institutions for French-language minority institutions is $62 million.

[Richard Cannings, NDP, South Okanagan—West Kootenay, BC]

Thank you.

Madam Chair, I'll cede the rest of my time, if there is any.

[The Chair, Liberal, Kirsty Duncan]

Thank you so much, Mr. Cannings.

With that, I will confirm with the Conservative Party that we are going back to Mr. Blanchette-Joncas.

[Corey Tochor, Conservative, Saskatoon—University, SK]

That's correct.

[The Chair, Liberal, Kirsty Duncan]

Thank you so much, Mr. Tochor.

Mr. Blanchette-Joncas, the floor is yours for five minutes.