Science and Research Committee on Nov. 28th, 2022

[Amee Barber]

I would reinforce our ask for the government to be an equity partner through warrants, and to invest in a long-term program that is stable and that takes us outside of traditional grant requirements that seek to limit capital investment in research and development, but I think it's also a question of keeping the talent here and then building out the manufacturing capacity and the supply chain.

In Canada, we're really good at seed financing and we're really good at producing RIP, restricted intellectual property, but when you look at.... I think it was the C.D. Howe Institute that looked at how much the copyright or the licensing of that IP gets taken away by other countries.

We don't want that to happen with our technology. We want to be able to manufacture the kits here. We are a technology provider in the sense that we don't plan to own or operate our plants, so that gives us opportunity to build them out here, but it also gives us opportunity to export our technology and to make government revenue from that.

[Ryan Williams, Conservative, Bay of Quinte, ON]

The U.S.A. is our biggest competitor. The U.S. energy board has Earthshots, through which they are investing heavily in hydrogen, energy-storage carbons, geothermal and wind, so when I say moonshot, it seems as though we finally have a differentiator. We have something that Canada can excel at, but the Inflation Reduction Act in the U.S. has a lot of money compared to what we have. We're looking at European nations that are looking to bring their green power to the U.S. They are investing $391 billion in green energy. That would be equivalent to $39 billion for Canada.

Is it just money, though? I guess my last question would be what else we need to be a differentiator. You mentioned a couple of things—commercialization, research and development. What do we really need to ensure that Canada is the world leader in fusion?

[Amee Barber]

I think we have to consider creative partnerships like the one we put forward in terms of strategically partnering with the U.K. as an equity partner, leveraging the private interest in fusion and considering the fact that the Canadian government would get direct returns on its investment that way.

[Ryan Williams, Conservative, Bay of Quinte, ON]

Madam Chair, I think I'm all done. Thank you very much.

[The Chair, Liberal, Kirsty Duncan]

Thank you, Mr. Williams. It is lovely to have you back today.

With that, we will go to Ms. Bradford for five minutes, please.

[Valerie Bradford, Liberal, Kitchener South—Hespeler, ON]

Thank you so much, Madam Chair.

Thank you again to Dr. Barber and Dr. Smith for being here with us tonight.

To get it on the record, I want to clarify a point with you, Dr. Barber. The Canadian government has made substantial investments in your company. Is that right?

You're saying yes. Do you want to review what the dollar value is of that?

[Amee Barber]

Approximately, if combined, it equals about $100 million over the 20 years. We are very grateful for that. That funding will come to a close at the end of 2023.

[Valerie Bradford, Liberal, Kitchener South—Hespeler, ON]

Great. At least it shows that the Canadian government recognizes—

[Amee Barber]

Absolutely. It's been critical to us.

[Valerie Bradford, Liberal, Kitchener South—Hespeler, ON]

—the technology and that it has a great future.

Dr. Smith, I have a couple of questions for you as well.

Moonshot goals are supposed to be extremely ambitious goals. How can the government help mobilize the research committee and the general public behind trying to solve some of the biggest issues of our time?

[Kevin Smith]

I think identification of what exactly the goal looks like and feels like, and the timeframe to get there....

I think the most successful moonshot goals first identify what the problem is and what percentage or proportion of Canadians would agree that of all of our social pressures and of all of the most challenging issues for Canadians, it ranks in their top one, two or three.

We'll then be looking at the kinds of resources that Canada already enjoys. In the case of research, the resources are a very strong research community and the opportunity to leverage investment and a strong commercial presence, be that in either of the topics that I or my colleague presenter this evening have talked about, of health care or energy.

Last, but certainly not least, it's productive analytics that allow us to show Canadians that we're making progress on the world stage. I think few Canadians are interested in saying, “I'd like to have the best cancer system or the best energy system in Canada.” They want the best cancer system or energy system in the world. How can we demonstrate that Canadians will enjoy that with these investments?

[Valerie Bradford, Liberal, Kitchener South—Hespeler, ON]

Thank you. That's a very inspiring, inspirational and aspirational goal.

Here's a question that you might find coming a bit out of left field. I know that you're a professor with the department of medicine at McMaster University, and I am aware of the bat lab there. Bats have been a topic of conversation tonight. I don't know if you were following the previous panels.

Can you tell me, to your knowledge—I'm sure you're aware—what kind of research they're doing in the bat lab at McMaster? I find it quite fascinating.

[Kevin Smith]

I'm going to embarrass myself a bit, because it's not an area that I know well.

In my history—I was full time at McMaster before coming to Toronto—there was a remarkable man named Dale Buchanan, who was known as “bat man”. Much of the research looked at three things within the bat colonies. One was the saliva of bats and its conditions for the prevention of blood clotting. The other that I know of is the spatial array that bats have in terms of the equivalent of the most advanced sonar known to man, and looking at geospatial positioning.

Beyond that, I would be happy to follow up with a note to you and speak to my colleagues, who are much more knowledgeable.

[Valerie Bradford, Liberal, Kitchener South—Hespeler, ON]

That would be great.

This is my final question. You'll leave on a high note with me.

In 1961, JFK challenged the nation to put a man on the moon before the end of the decade, and eight years later mankind was on the moon.

If we fast-forward to eight years from now, what would you like to see Canada achieve? I think you alluded a bit to that earlier, but where do you think we could be in eight years?

[Kevin Smith]

I think, selfishly, any of the above that we've discussed.

I personally think the most important thing that Canadians are struggling with today is access to high-quality well-being in health care. Therefore, I would say I'd love to see that Canada has the world's best health care system, realizing the best outcomes and the highest health of the population.

I'd also love to see that our health care workers are among the most satisfied and rewarded in the world. At the moment, we're challenged, but I have every confidence that all of the antecedent conditions are there. If we were to make that an objective, we could realize that goal.

[Valerie Bradford, Liberal, Kitchener South—Hespeler, ON]

I agree. Affordable and accessible health care seems to be a current challenge right now, but it's definitely one that we're focusing our efforts on. It probably is a moonshot at this point from where we are, but thank you so much.

I don't know if I have any more time, but I'll cede it to whomever, Madam Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Kirsty Duncan]

Dear colleagues, I'm afraid we've come to the end of our night together.

Our first order of business is to thank our two witnesses, Dr. Barber and Dr. Smith.

We're grateful for your time and for coming and sharing your expertise. We are very grateful to you both. With that, you are welcome to leave. We have some committee business. I would like to once again thank both of our witnesses.

With that, dear colleagues, I have a little business to do with you.

Are we good to go, Mr. Clerk?

[The Clerk of the Committee, Keelan Buck]

Yes. We are in public, but we're good to go.

[The Chair, Liberal, Kirsty Duncan]

Thank you very much, Mr. Clerk.

Colleagues, first of all, thank you for a great discussion tonight.

We have an order of business we have to get through tonight. The clerk has kindly distributed the latest version of our proposed travel budget for the trip that is currently planned for February 19 to 25, 2023. This is based on the information received from our committee and the sites that will be hosting us.

As you know, today's meeting is the last chance to adopt a budget for our planned trip before the deadline for submitting it to the SBLI committee.

Are there any questions, or can we entertain a motion to adopt this budget?

[Richard Cannings, NDP, South Okanagan—West Kootenay, BC]

I would be happy to move a motion to adopt the budget.

[Lena Metlege Diab, Liberal, Halifax West, NS]

Mr. Cannings moves it, and we all second it.

[The Chair, Liberal, Kirsty Duncan]

Is there agreement in the room?

[Lena Metlege Diab, Liberal, Halifax West, NS]

Yes.

(Motion agreed to)

[The Chair, Liberal, Kirsty Duncan]

Thank you, Ms. Diab.

Thank you, Mr. Cannings.

Thank you, Mr. Clerk, our translators, analysts and everyone who supports us.

With that, dear colleagues, we're adjourned.