Science and Research Committee on Dec. 5th, 2022

[Dr. Chad Gaffield]

As I see it, they are two sides of the same coin. If we invest in the grassroots and increase funding, that opens the door to a leadership role in global initiatives.

[The Chair, Liberal, Kirsty Duncan]

Dr. Gaffield, since you didn't get much of a chance to answer, perhaps Mr. Blanchette-Joncas would like a written answer to that.

[Maxime Blanchette-Joncas, Bloc, Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC]

I'd like a written response, Dr. Gaffield.

[The Chair, Liberal, Kirsty Duncan]

Thank you to you both.

Now we will go to Mr. Cannings for six minutes, please.

[Richard Cannings, NDP, South Okanagan—West Kootenay, BC]

Thank you.

I'd like to continue with Dr. Gaffield on that line.

You talked about how Canada is falling behind, and you mentioned the number of Canadians with advanced degrees. As I recall, 3% of Swedes have Ph.D.s and it's less than 1% of Canadians. Germany is at 2%. We are falling behind there.

One of the things we've been hearing about at this committee and elsewhere in the House is that tri-council funding for graduate students hasn't been raised since 2003, so many are being lured or forced away to do their graduate studies elsewhere. They're living in poverty here.

I'm just wondering if you think that's important. Obviously it may not be the entire problem, but is that one thing we should fix sooner rather than later?

[Dr. Chad Gaffield]

It's actually a bit humbling for us to think about the fact that we arrived at this point and we're surprised to learn that the level hasn't increased since 2003-04. To me, that's a bit of a sign that we weren't looking; we weren't paying attention to that.

I think you're putting your finger on part of this phenomena. If you think about Canada's decision to build a talent-based innovation system producing the people we really need for driving innovation across all of society so we have access to the global pool of knowledge, it shows we have really lost focus of that pretty basic item.

Those students, though, are just a small proportion of all graduate students, so where do the rest of them get funding? It's through research projects. At least half of all the research funds given for research projects go to people. They are paying research assistants, graduate students and so on. They're really investing in people.

One thing that's really important to think about is how embarrassing it is for us that those fellowship levels are the same. The punchline is that if we fix that, it's going to be a small aspect of the larger issue of what effort and investments are being put into the leaders of society we need for the transformational change that our society is undergoing.

[Richard Cannings, NDP, South Okanagan—West Kootenay, BC]

You mentioned the CHIPS and Science Act, which I think is about $280 billion. How does that stack up with what we spend in Canada on science? I guess I'm trying to think of what the federal government would have to put up to compete with that from a Canadian standpoint. I know we only have 10% of the U.S. population.

[Dr. Chad Gaffield]

I would be happy to provide the calculation, but our calculation says that to get us to roughly catch up, as Monsieur Blanchette-Joncas was saying earlier, would mean $1 billion a year. On the other hand, when we think about the ways we can really help Canada build a better future and help all sectors and all aspects of our country from coast to coast, $1 billion is a good investment.

[Richard Cannings, NDP, South Okanagan—West Kootenay, BC]

How much time do I have?

[The Chair, Liberal, Kirsty Duncan]

You have a minute and a half.

[Richard Cannings, NDP, South Okanagan—West Kootenay, BC]

With a minute and a half, I will go to Dr. Waite from the Ocean Frontier Institute.

I'm really curious about carbon dioxide removal. I will give you a minute and a half to talk about the how and the timeline involved.

I know little about carbon dioxide. Is it being stored in the water? Is it being stored in the sea floor? I will give you a little more time to expand on that.

[Dr. Anya Waite]

There are a number of technologies and techniques being used right now and developed here in Canada. We're hoping to do some coastal and deep ocean test beds.

This is an area where Canada can take leadership. We have been asking them to do so through the G7, for example. We believe that if nations joined across the Atlantic with a space station model—an ocean space station—we could lift the global performance really strongly.

This is a place where acceleration.... We have connection to industry. We have a very strong graduate student pool that is out of proportion to our size. Canada can really hit above its weight here, so it might be a place to start to show the world what we can do.

We're hitting above our weight in the ocean stage. If we do a major initiative in the North Atlantic, we are right up there with the U.S., U.K., France and Germany. We are doing more than they are doing already.

Carbon is stored in the sea floor in the deep sea—in the animals, plants and root systems on the sea floor. Different techniques enhance those storage depots in different ways.

[The Chair, Liberal, Kirsty Duncan]

Dr. Waite, I apologize for interrupting.

Thank you to both our witnesses. It's a really interesting discussion.

We'll now go to our five-minute round. This time we're going to Mr. Mazier.

[Dan Mazier, Conservative, Dauphin—Swan River—Neepawa, MB]

Thank you, Chair.

Dr. Gaffield, you mentioned in answering Mr. Soroka that in agriculture, there is a need to keep top talent. What did you mean by that?

[Dr. Chad Gaffield]

I'd be happy to connect with experts in this field, but what we've been learning is that a transformation in the world of agriculture is occurring, as it is in all sectors. There's no question about it. We have major research projects under way in all parts of the agrobusiness world now.

One thing Canada should embrace is the fact that we have a very diversified country. We have all sorts of strengths, and it seems to me that showing world-leading innovation in agriculture should be one thing we aspire to and treat as a real priority.

When I think about our institutions, whether they're in Saskatchewan or elsewhere, we know.... In many corners of our country, we're learning that there are important transformations in how we ensure food security that is world-leading. We have an opportunity in agriculture to play the same kind of global leadership role that I'm suggesting we are playing in other fields.

[Dan Mazier, Conservative, Dauphin—Swan River—Neepawa, MB]

With regard to the balance of everything we research in Canada what we can research in Canada, do you think agriculture should take a more prominent role in what we are studying?

[Dr. Chad Gaffield]

Food security is an issue globally. Regarding how to optimize the potential of land and everything from production to distribution networks, it seems to me that there is a real paradigm shift in thinking and practice going on now.

Canada is just as well situated in agriculture as in other fields to take advantage of, for example, AI and other sorts of strategies. This is already happening in our leading industries, and there are important research projects, which have my attention, with the possibility for global research leadership.

[Dan Mazier, Conservative, Dauphin—Swan River—Neepawa, MB]

You mentioned earlier that we're at the bottom of the G7 countries for graduate students. We've also heard many times in this study about the draining of people down to the United States.

Besides giving $1 billion—because everybody wants money since money makes the world go around—what one thing could we do to make Canada more competitive for graduate students so that we stop the bleeding and stop them from leaving our country?

[Dr. Chad Gaffield]

I am so proud to have a chance to contribute to Canadian higher education, and I think the research and innovation ecosystem we have built over the last 25 years has some very serious strengths that have proven to be even more important along the way than they were ever imagined to be. For example, earlier we were talking about the links that our universities have with surrounding communities and private, public and non-profit sectors. We've never, ever in Canada talked about ivory towers. I like the fact that we have such a strong public system. I like the fact that we have access to the top talent. We're able to do it.

We definitely need the policy changes that we've been working on. We need to do better in equity, diversity, inclusion and indigenization. There is a lot of policy work under way now that we've embarked on. We have a ways to go.

[Dan Mazier, Conservative, Dauphin—Swan River—Neepawa, MB]

I have one short question. Is it more expensive to do research in Canada than it is in the United States? Between the carbon tax that universities have to pay and the heating students have to pay for their homes, does it cost more in Canada for a person to do research than it does in the United States or in any other country?

[Dr. Chad Gaffield]

I haven't heard that. I haven't seen comparisons like that. My sense is that the top talent is attracted to Canada when they have the facilities, when they can get the support—

[The Chair, Liberal, Kirsty Duncan]

I'm sorry to interrupt, gentlemen.

Mr. Mazier, would you like a written answer to that?

[Dan Mazier, Conservative, Dauphin—Swan River—Neepawa, MB]

Yes. That would be great.

[The Chair, Liberal, Kirsty Duncan]

Okay.

Thank you to our two witnesses for being so gracious with your time and expertise.

We'll now go to Ms. Diab for five minutes, please.

[Lena Metlege Diab, Liberal, Halifax West, NS]

Thank you very much, Madam Chair.

Let me thank both of our witnesses here this evening for taking the time to contribute to our study.

Dr. Waite, it's lovely to see you again. In September 2016, as I remember, I was thrilled to be at the original funding announcement for the Ocean Frontier Institute at Dalhousie University. My recollection is that at the time, Scott Brison was the minister for the Treasury Board and was there representing the Government of Canada. I was there as a representative of the provincial government.

I believe that $94 million is what Canada contributed at the time, and there was great support from Nova Scotia, Newfoundland, P.E.I. and a number of other partners, with another $125 million. That showed us a wonderful example of how governments at different levels, but also universities and national and international research partners, can collaborate and work together.

We're talking about moon shots and the extraordinary efforts that it took years ago to get mankind to the moon and the immense scientific spinoff that came from those voyages. I'm curious: What you would say to the claim that we know more about space than we know about the deep sea?

I'm going to take you to deep blue carbon—I wrote that down. It's about taking carbon from the atmosphere and storing it in the deep sea. It sounds to me like we have a long way to go. Can you speak to us about that and the value of researching the ocean floor with the same ambition that people researched space with years ago and probably still do?