Science and Research Committee on Feb. 2nd, 2023

[Ben Lobb, Conservative, Huron—Bruce, ON]

Okay.

Is anybody up here on the panel today familiar with the Seven Sons of National Defence, and are they studying at Canadian universities?

[Valerie Bradford, Liberal, Kitchener South—Hespeler, ON]

I have a point of order.

Mr. Chair, I really feel that, since we have such limited time left, it would be nice if we could keep it to moon shots and French research.

[Ben Lobb, Conservative, Huron—Bruce, ON]

With all due respect, Mr. Chair, Ms. Bradford did bring up the Avro Arrow, so relevance could be questioned there as well.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Corey Tochor]

There's latitude at committee to allow people to ask questions and mention subjects that are close. I think the example is an astute one. Bringing up a cancelled air defence program is similar to this.

It's Mr. Lobb's time, so he will have two minutes and 20 seconds to complete it.

[François-Philippe Champagne, Liberal, Saint-Maurice—Champlain, QC]

MP Lobb, in all fairness, I think you should have the security agencies come here to answer that question, if you want. I think it's fair to ask that of civil servants who are heading—

[Ben Lobb, Conservative, Huron—Bruce, ON]

It's a good point, but if you read different articles, this is just what occurs. It's passing the buck around.

[François-Philippe Champagne, Liberal, Saint-Maurice—Champlain, QC]

Sir, look at the guy in front of you. Who's issuing the security guidelines? I issue the security guidelines. I'm not passing the buck to anyone.

I told you that it's unacceptable. Since this article, we have taken action. We're going to publish new guidelines. We're expanding beyond the people you see here because I want to capture other universities, so they become best in class. I don't think passing the buck is really what we're doing. We're addressing that.

To your specific question, I want to be responsive. I'm a parliamentarian just as you are.

[Ben Lobb, Conservative, Huron—Bruce, ON]

I did ask and you said we should bring in some security people.

[François-Philippe Champagne, Liberal, Saint-Maurice—Champlain, QC]

You should have the security agency folks. I think they would be better suited to answer that question.

[Valerie Bradford, Liberal, Kitchener South—Hespeler, ON]

I have a point of order.

[Ben Lobb, Conservative, Huron—Bruce, ON]

That's fair enough, but the other question would go back to actually knowing which students are studying here, which universities and which research students. We don't have a list. We don't have any knowledge. None of the folks here around the table—it doesn't matter if it's government or public servants—apparently have the answer to that.

[Valerie Bradford, Liberal, Kitchener South—Hespeler, ON]

I have a point of order.

Again, I question this line of questioning. It's inappropriate and off topic.

Getting back to the Avro Arrow, I was making a comment. It was not a question and it was to do with talent and moon shots. That's why I raised it.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Corey Tochor]

MP Bradford, we have 30 seconds left for Mr. Lobb to conclude his questions.

[Ben Lobb, Conservative, Huron—Bruce, ON]

Here is a question for the minister: How much of your department is currently operating on the cloud? Do you have an idea? Is it all converted to the cloud? What are your goals as minister? Do you see the benefits of that?

[François-Philippe Champagne, Liberal, Saint-Maurice—Champlain, QC]

I would be happy to bring our chief technology officer to testify next time, sir. I would not start guessing how much is in the cloud, but I—

[Ben Lobb, Conservative, Huron—Bruce, ON]

Does he report that to you, as the Minister of Industry in your own department?

[François-Philippe Champagne, Liberal, Saint-Maurice—Champlain, QC]

I'll just put it this way: I'm happy to provide a written answer to you, sir. I want to be accurate, with respect to your role as a parliamentarian. I want to be responsive.

If you allow us, we'll respond in writing to your question.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Corey Tochor]

Thank you kindly.

We are out of time, Mr. Lobb.

We'll go on to MP Collins for five minutes.

[Chad Collins, Liberal, Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON]

Thanks, Mr. Chair.

Welcome, Minister.

I'll try to get us back on the moon shot questioning. That's why you're here.

Last week, you were in Hamilton, in my municipality, with the Prime Minister and cabinet. You had the opportunity to tour McMaster University's innovation park. Dr. Emadi was there, highlighting their work on autonomous vehicles as well as other AI-related work they're doing at McMaster.

One theme that came up during the tour—not just from the professor but from the students—was that there's a lot of private sector support. A lot of government resources have been invested in the facility—like, for that building you were walking through, obviously. Lots of federal, as well as provincial, dollars and investments have been made.

They were seeking more assistance along the lines of operational dollars. The automotive industries, in that instance, are providing funds for the students and the faculty to conduct the work they're conducting. Their question was this: What role does the federal government play on a go-forward basis from an operational perspective?

I know you're very familiar with the budget lines in your ministry. What role do you foresee us playing in the next couple of years, specifically with McMaster, but also with other institutions like it that are conducting very important research?

[François-Philippe Champagne, Liberal, Saint-Maurice—Champlain, QC]

Thank you for the question.

For the folks at McMaster, I like you. I love you, actually. You do great work. It's always a pleasure to go there. We were well received. Everyone was kind.

In a sense you're right. McMaster, like a number of centres, had a head start. I think that we have everything to win in the economy of the 21st century. When you talk about autonomous vehicles and when you talk about AI, we're certainly punching above our weight.

Historically, the Government of Canada has been more on the capex side. With the Canada Foundation for Innovation, that's where we've been. That's why we have these programs where we invested billions, actually, to help a number of institutions across the country really have the means of our ambitions to upgrade the labs, the facilities and all that.

I am very familiar that. When it comes to the opex side of things, universities have asked if we can help them there. We're going to be looking at that.

The other way we can look at that is through partnerships. You mentioned the automotive sector. I'm very grateful for the work of Professor Bouchard, who was part of this science review panel. One thing I'm trying to look at is what they do in the United States with partnerships with industry to try to bring more money to the table, so that it's not just taxpayers' money or government. Is there a way, like you see in the United States with some big corporations, where there are these tech parks where they can partner?

I think I see that in action. For electric vehicles, in my discussions with automakers, they're willing to be part of the solution. They understand that talent is going to be key to their success as much as our success, and they want to be part of that. That's a model.

I would say that the work of Professor Bouchard is going to be informative in trying to find the right balance between that. Obviously, if you finance opex, there's a bit less money for capex, so you need to have this kind of approach. I'm trying to look at—and I'm sure it's going to appeal to my colleagues on the other side, as well—how the private sector can play a role in that, so it's not just public funds. It's something we can do. I think it's in everyone's best interests.

[Chad Collins, Liberal, Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON]

Thanks, Minister.

I know you had the opportunity to speak to President Farrar about the global nexus project they're working on, which is going to prepare us for the next pandemic.

Of course, McMaster was part of all the things related to the pandemic that we're dealing with today. It was part of a moon shot program 20 or 30 years ago that helped us with the vaccine and everything related to the R and D that went into helping our country and others across the world deal with the pandemic from a vaccine perspective. Its global nexus project is that next phase in helping us prepare for the next pandemic when it comes.

Where do you foresee your ministry going as it relates to key investments in pandemic preparedness and emergency preparedness, as it relates to moon shot programs in the area and R and D associated with the same?

[François-Philippe Champagne, Liberal, Saint-Maurice—Champlain, QC]

They did a very great job. They even showed me the plot where the building would be built. They brought me to the window and told me to just imagine the building that would serve the future of resiliency.

Listen—we are on the same page. Resiliency in the biomanufacturing sector is key. Like I said, the foremost responsibility we have as parliamentarians is the health and safety of Canadians. That's why, from the beginning, we invested $2 billion in the whole family of vaccines. At the time, we did not know precisely what would work.

Again, we're going to continue to invest. That project is very interesting.

There are also a number of projects in the west on health. We've been doing some work with VIDO-InterVac—

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Corey Tochor]

I'm sorry, Minister. We're going to have to cut this off. We are running long—

[François-Philippe Champagne, Liberal, Saint-Maurice—Champlain, QC]

He would like me to continue to talk.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Corey Tochor]

I know.

We are very grateful to the analysts and the clerks, and most importantly, the interpreters, who stayed a little extra today to make sure we got in all of the rounds of questions. I appreciate the work that you do.

Our next meeting is scheduled for Tuesday, February 7, and Madam Chair will have the clerk publish the notice soon. Madam Chair needs to sign off on scheduling that. I am just the vice-chair.

With that, colleagues, is there agreement to adjourn the meeting.