Science and Research Committee on April 27th, 2023

[Stéphane Lauzon, Liberal, Argenteuil—La Petite-Nation, QC]

I am going to ask Mr. Bailey a question.

According to your experience as a lawyer, we are not on track to meet the target objectives for patents. You said that thousands of patents have gone astray and you referred to some approaches that could improve the system.

Could you comment on those objectives?

As a government, how might we stop these patents from getting lost in the system, so we can get them back on track and strengthen the system?

[Todd Bailey]

It's a great question.

What I'm saying is that traditionally, and this is not a Canadian problem, people are seeing intellectual property as something for the lawyers, and they're missing this aspect that there are really three chairs at the table. When an inventor goes to see their patent lawyer, their patent agent, you have two of the chairs filled. If that inventor is also an entrepreneur, maybe they have one cheek on each chair, but they're really there with a focus on the technology.

Patents are not about technology. Patents are about business. We need to get that across.

[The Chair, Liberal, Lloyd Longfield]

Thank you.

[Stéphane Lauzon, Liberal, Argenteuil—La Petite-Nation, QC]

Perhaps he could send a note on this. I would like to hear more about this.

[The Chair, Liberal, Lloyd Longfield]

Sure.

For either witness, if you have more information, you can provide it in writing. That would be helpful for the analysts.

[Stéphane Lauzon, Liberal, Argenteuil—La Petite-Nation, QC]

It's important for this committee.

[The Chair, Liberal, Lloyd Longfield]

Thank you.

I'll start the clock now for Mr. Lemire.

[Sébastien Lemire, Bloc, Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Mr. Buy, how big a role can universities play in commercialization? I'll use the example of the Université du Québec campus in Abitibi‑Témiscamingue, and its agri-food research station, which is located in Notre‑Dame-du-Nord. The station is used to bolster agriculture in quite a northern region where the soil has a high clay content.

How can we guarantee that innovation and research yield this new knowledge that will be conducive to commercialization?

I would like you to comment on the funds the department injected into agriculture, which were aimed in particular at driving innovation further ahead. Is the funding currently provided enough?

[Serge Buy]

I will answer in two parts.

Firstly, you asked whether the work done by universities is important: I can tell you that it is vital. Universities do excellent work in agri-food research and innovation. We absolutely support their funding requests for research infrastructure. It is essential.

Their ability to create innovation and then commercialize it is another matter. What we find somewhat regrettable is that in Canada, and even in Quebec, the way that businesses work with universities on IP is not coordinated. It would be beneficial if there were some more coordination in that regard.

Secondly, as to whether the funding provided is enough, I can tell you there can never be too much. However, it is up to you, members of Parliament, to decide where the money will go. What we usually ask is whether the funding to agri-food research might be used more efficiently and effectively. That is why we say that coordination would facilitate that.

[Sébastien Lemire, Bloc, Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC]

I appreciate your position. Yes, I believe that is necessary if we want to reach our food resilience objectives.

How can we help knowledge be transferred from Quebec and Canadian universities or research organizations to agricultural businesses to international exports? For example, in my region, we have organizations like 48e Nord international or the Université du Québec campus in Abitibi‑Témiscamingue. How can we support this knowledge transfer?

[Serge Buy]

That can be achieved by funding the centres, the business incubators and the organizations that support the connections between universities, research centres, entrepreneurs, farmers and organizations. Business incubators do superb work and it would be excellent to help them out with it.

In short, more funding should be allocated to business incubators.

[The Chair, Liberal, Lloyd Longfield]

Thank you.

Mr. Cannings, you have two and half minutes, please.

[Richard Cannings, NDP, South Okanagan—West Kootenay, BC]

Thank you. I'll turn to Mr. Bailey.

We're here to find out, in a broad sense, what the Canadian government could do to help the innovative sector and help guide IP policy. You've mentioned the Canadian innovation corporation a couple of times. Perhaps you could tell us, if you were in charge of that corporation, or at least the IP part of it, what would your priorities be in terms of helping Canadian innovators and corporations improve our record in this regard?

[Todd Bailey]

I will be repeating myself, but I will be happy to do that. Patents are a tool of business. What I see the role of CIC as.... I don't know exactly what they will be mandated to do, but if you have a sort of cross-government, cross-funding program you have an opportunity to level-set the playing field across Canada to get the message out that IP is not just about the legal protection or the technology; it's actually about the business piece.

Every patent agent and every patent lawyer knows that, but it isn't their job to go and do that. They will tell their client, you need to be concerned about these things, but ultimately the client has to manage things like their focus on the technology. They have to pay the bills at the end of the day, so you want to get those messages out.

You also want to be able to facilitate finding that kind of business advice so that entrepreneurs don't just call up and say that you need to go get an IP strategy, but say that here is someone or here is some expertise relevant to your field that will help you see yourself in that future state.

[Richard Cannings, NDP, South Okanagan—West Kootenay, BC]

I'll just leave it there.

[The Chair, Liberal, Lloyd Longfield]

Thank you.

We have a few minutes. We have four minutes left, so there's time for one question of up to two minutes from Mr. Williams. Then we'll go to the Liberals.

[Ryan Williams, Conservative, Bay of Quinte, ON]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

I will follow up on my earlier questions to Mr. Bailey on AI. I think that last year alone China filed 14,000 patents in AI. That was more than Canada filed as a whole for all of our patents, I believe.

What significance does that have on capital access to markets, comparing to Canadians? What kind of system can we create that rewards commercialization? I know about the difficulty you talked about before, but in getting a little bit ahead of that and competing with that....

[Todd Bailey]

I did mention that there is a huge attrition rate between patent filing and patent grants for AI, because it sits in this special place. You also have to understand, if we are talking about patent filings in China, that the Chinese government pays researchers to file patents, but those researchers don't get any more money after that first cheque. Those patents all end up on the cutting room floor for the most part. There is a lot of research, including Canadian research, that shows that it's a fraction of one per cent of those patent applications that actually turn into patents outside of China.

I also mentioned that every sector is not the same. Just because you have a patent.... Not all patents are worth the same; they're not like money. I can go get a patent for my shoe, probably, but I'm not going to be able to really enforce that against anyone because shoes have been around for quite some time. That's not a condemnation of the patent process. There is probably something I can put on my shoe that is quite unique and get a patent for it. All patents are not the same.

We had a witness in the last section who said that, for software and AI, patents are not always the best route. We have to get out of the mode of always thinking that patents are at the pinnacle. All of that is to say that there is a lot of intellectual property, especially in AI, that is being commercialized and protected, but not through the patent route because that is not always the best route.

[The Chair, Liberal, Lloyd Longfield]

Thank you.

Mr. Lauzon.

[Stéphane Lauzon, Liberal, Argenteuil—La Petite-Nation, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Mr. Bailey, Professor Yoshua Bengio is an international authority on artificial intelligence based in Montreal. On April 15, he told us clearly that it is very important to act now on Bill C‑27, An Act to enact the Consumer Privacy Protection Act, the Personal Information and Data Protection Tribunal Act and the Artificial Intelligence and Data Act and to make consequential and related amendments to other Acts.

We are establishing international leadership through Bill C‑27. Do you believe this leadership will inspire the United States to address matters the same way we are, since it does not have such legislation?

[Todd Bailey]

Canada is not by itself in the world. It has to deal with other parties out there. Across the pond, you have Europe, which takes a very heavy approach to regulation. They're usually leading the pack, and they have been on AI as well. To the south, we have a country, the United States, the does not do a lot of regulation. As a country, Canada wants to do business in both jurisdictions, so we have to walk a line.

I have not been involved in any of the consultations relating to this. It is just sort of my perspective. We have to walk a line. This is what I see in Bill C-27, part 3, the AI and data act part. It is trying to create a framework that will be helpful for Canadian companies that want to go do business in Europe. It also does not want to discourage our interactions with the United States in terms of AI. We have to accept that the big players in all digital spaces are mostly American companies, and we don't want to cut ourselves off from that.

[The Chair, Liberal, Lloyd Longfield]

Thank you. It's good to get that nuance.

[Stéphane Lauzon, Liberal, Argenteuil—La Petite-Nation, QC]

Can I ask one more question, please?

[The Chair, Liberal, Lloyd Longfield]

No. Thank you.

Thank you to the witnesses for providing great answers and for getting some of the nuances on the table for us to consider.

Next Tuesday, May 2, the subcommittee will be meeting from 11 until 11:50, and then the main committee will meet in camera from noon until one to begin reviewing the draft report on international moonshot programs. Notices of these meetings have been published.

Do you we have an agreement to adjourn?

[Some hon. members]

Agreed.