Science and Research Committee on May 4th, 2023

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Corey Tochor]

I'm sorry, we're going to have to request a written response. You're 12 seconds over, and we want to get to the two-and-a-half-minute rounds without too much complaining from the members today.

Moving on, we are going to the Liberals and Mr. Van Bynen.

[Tony Van Bynen, Liberal, Newmarket—Aurora, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair. I appreciate the opportunity to sit in on the discussions here today.

I'd like to put some things into context. We're making constant comparisons to what's available in the United States. A cursory review has indicated that the average cost of a master's degree is between $20,000 to $30,000 a year, as compared to Canada, where it's $17,000 a year. I'd like to put that into context in terms of using those comparisons. Let's use them on both sides.

The other thing as well, as a matter of record, is that we keep hearing that nothing has been done in terms of supporting students in education. In budget 2023, $813 million was committed to enhancing financial assistance to students. That includes student loan grants being increased by 40%. In the previous budget, any repayment of student loans would not be required if their income was less than $40,000, and the maximum amount of repayment for a student to the student loan was reduced to 10% of their income, from 20%.

In addition to that, we also introduced $30,000 in loan forgiveness for nurses and $60,000 in loan forgiveness for doctors.

I'd like to put this in the context of the overall support for education. I acknowledge that this is not in the scope of this study, but I think this information should also be a consideration as we go forward.

Having said that, I will turn the balance of my time over to my colleague, Mr. Lauzon.

[Stéphane Lauzon, Liberal, Argenteuil—La Petite-Nation, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I'd like to thank the witnesses for being here.

For the record, I understand that Mr. Lemire wasn't here during the last studies we did. There was one on French-language research, and his colleague from his party who was here at the time participated in that. A lot of the data and questions are related to that study rather than to funding.

Mr. Bélanger, you gave us a lead by suggesting that things would have to be done differently if the funding came directly from the universities. So we're dealing directly with the funding system itself. Can you tell us what a funding system administered directly by the universities might look like?

[Philippe-Edwin Bélanger]

I didn't say that I thought it was desirable. However, I thought that there was a sort of causal link between the question of one of your colleagues on the increase in grants and the possibility of funding going directly through the universities. Between the decisions of Parliament and the redistribution that you make to research, there is an intermediate level, composed of the federal granting councils, whose work and existence I don't question.

[Stéphane Lauzon, Liberal, Argenteuil—La Petite-Nation, QC]

So, you're very clearly saying that you agree that it should go through the federal councils and that they should be the ones to distribute the grants.

[Philippe-Edwin Bélanger]

I think this would allow us to keep a distance between the political sphere and the research sector. So I want to make it absolutely clear: the Canadian Association for Graduate Studies does not recommend in any way—

[Stéphane Lauzon, Liberal, Argenteuil—La Petite-Nation, QC]

It's important for me to put this on the record for today's meeting, and it's also important to distinguish between this study and the one the committee did on research in French.

You piqued my interest by saying that in other countries it was possible to study in French and that in Quebec it was possible to do research in French. However, in its other study, the committee looked at publication. Publication is one thing, but research is another.

Are we blocking or preventing students from doing research in French in Quebec and everywhere in Canada where French is spoken? I also invite Ms. Mbuya‑Bienge to answer my question if she wishes.

[Philippe-Edwin Bélanger]

Your question has several parts to it.

If I go back to the councils again, I think the main concern of Quebec universities and francophone universities in general is to ensure that applications for scholarships and grants submitted in French are properly evaluated, which we still have doubts about. The committees are certainly bilingual, but sometimes there aren't many people who can understand the documents submitted as part of the grant applications.

[Stéphane Lauzon, Liberal, Argenteuil—La Petite-Nation, QC]

This justifies the importance of having francophone members on these committees.

[Philippe-Edwin Bélanger]

Yes.

As for the distinction you make between the language of publication and the language of research, there is indeed a very important nuance. It's possible to work in a French laboratory and produce scientific literature in English. In my opinion—

[Stéphane Lauzon, Liberal, Argenteuil—La Petite-Nation, QC]

In this context, the reason we produce in English rather than only in French is perhaps that we want to reach more G20 countries to be better included in the system and—

[Philippe-Edwin Bélanger]

It's to ensure better dissemination of research work.

[Stéphane Lauzon, Liberal, Argenteuil—La Petite-Nation, QC]

Yes.

Do you think that, financially, students—

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Corey Tochor]

I'm sorry to interrupt. We are 20 seconds over already, and we're trying to get the last round in to make everyone happy.

Moving on to the MP from the Bloc, we have Mr. Lemire for two and a half minutes.

[Sébastien Lemire, Bloc, Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I would like to thank Mr. Collins for asking the question earlier, and Mr. Lobb for his openness.

I want to respond to what Mr. Lauzon is saying. There are implications. According to information published on the CBC website on independent funding, 98% of the total funding from the Canadian Institutes of Health Research goes to research in English. The figure is 81% for the Social Sciences and Humanities Research Council and 96% for the Natural Sciences and Engineering Research Council. This strong bias on the part of independent bodies has a very significant impact. The link can be made to initiatives such as Bill C‑13 and its impact on the funding of English-language advocacy organizations in Quebec. This is a step backwards for the French language, and I absolutely cannot support it.

I'd like to hear from you on the issue of the psychological health of your members and underfunding. What impact does underfunding have on your members?

[Sébastien Paquette]

I don't have the exact figures. However, I remember seeing a survey circulated during the pandemic. We were at 64% of university students with mental health issues. I can't say it's the same numbers for post-docs, but I think the level is high as well. If you look at the level of funding for post-docs who are fortunate enough to be unionized, the salary floor, which is the minimum salary the university has to pay them, ranges from $33,000 to $48,000. The research professor can pay more, but there isn't necessarily an incentive to do so.

Earlier we were talking about the level of funding, but you also have to look at it on a project basis. The professor-researcher is given funding for a project. At the end, if he has not met his commitments, his funding won't be renewed. So, if he gets $130,000 to pay post-docs, is he going to choose to pay two at $60,000 each or three at $40,000? The answer is simple. He will choose to pay three at $40,000 because he'll want more papers produced. Meanwhile, those three $40,000 students are going to be working under difficult conditions.

If this continues, minimum wage will catch up with our post-docs' salaries. Certainly, this raises a mental health issue. When you're a post-doc, in your 30s, that's often when you start a family. But starting a family on $40,000 a year isn't easy. A lot of post-docs come from abroad, so they come with their spouses, who don't necessarily have the ability to find a job in the—

[Sébastien Lemire, Bloc, Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC]

I have to stop you if I want my colleague from the NDP to ask his questions.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Corey Tochor]

We are 15 seconds over. I apologize again.

We're going to go on to the last round of questioning, from Mr. Cannings, for two and a half minutes.

[Richard Cannings, NDP, South Okanagan—West Kootenay, BC]

Thank you.

I'm going to continue with Mr. Paquette. You mentioned that with the post-doctoral fellowships and grants, the amounts set the standard—this is the way I understood it—of what the researchers would pay if they were also paying their post-docs. The amounts set by the tri-councils in their post-doctoral fellowships—

[Sébastien Paquette]

In the case of scholarships, it is indeed the research councils that set the amounts. However, post-doctoral fellows are often Mitacs fellowships at the Canadian level. The typical income for Mitacs fellows is $40,000 plus $5,000 for equipment. Some awards are higher.

For example, one of my colleagues at one point received a $53,000 award. However, when he was awarded it, what he wasn't told was that employer expenses would be deducted from it, and they are typically 13% to 20% of the total, depending on the job. So my colleague was paid less than $45,000 per year, when he was promised $53,000 gross income.

This is another problem and is something that isn't announced to the post-doc before they take the job. That should be clear. If not, the award should be announced, but then supplements for employer charges should be added so that the university can pay the post-doc the amount announced, without breaking its word.

[Richard Cannings, NDP, South Okanagan—West Kootenay, BC]

Could you just clarify? Did you say some post-doctorals have to pay for the equipment and materials that they need?

[Sébastien Paquette]

A portion of the amount is for equipment. As I was saying, the salary for Mitacs fellows is $40,000 plus $5,000 for equipment. If there are additional purchases to be made, faculty will often subtract the cost of those from that amount because they have not budgeted that cost in their research funds for that project. In effect, the project is planned based on the award that comes from the granting agency.

[Richard Cannings, NDP, South Okanagan—West Kootenay, BC]

Thank you.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Corey Tochor]

Thank you so much to our witnesses and to members for their insightful questions.

That concludes our committee for today.

We will be meeting on Tuesday, May 9 to resume the study of the Government of Canada's graduate scholarship and post-doctoral fellowship programs.

It being now past the time of adjournment of one o'clock, this meeting now stands as adjourned.