Science and Research Committee on May 18th, 2023

[Maxime Blanchette-Joncas, Bloc, Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

I'll come back to today's study on graduate scholarships.

When someone has a shameful record, it is only natural to want to avoid the subject of the discussion. We just had a good demonstration of that.

I would like to get back to the heart of the matter with Mr. Davidson.

Mr. Davidson, we would like to get some data that will inform our report. Could you provide us with concrete data on the proportion of students who receive federal scholarships compared to the number of students pursuing graduate studies at the 97 universities you represent?

My next questions are for Mr. Normand.

Mr. Normand, you mentioned in your opening remarks that the average student debt of a francophone student at the end of their studies was $4,000 higher than that of an anglophone student. This is a big deal for a student who already has to pay for rent, groceries, travel, tuition and everything else, with a scholarship that has not increased in 20 years. I repeat, 20 years. That is not to mention the large proportion of students who do not even receive scholarships. This may influence a person's decision to pursue an education or to go to work to pay off their debts.

Can you tell me more about why there is such a gap between the indebtedness of francophone and anglophone students?

[Martin Normand]

The first phenomenon that explains this gap is the distance that francophone students outside Quebec have to travel to study at a francophone institution.

There are 97 universities in Canada, and the Association des collèges et universités de la francophonie canadienne has 22 member institutions.

In some provinces, there is only one francophone institution. In Alberta, the University of Alberta's Campus Saint-Jean is the only francophone institution. The same goes for the Collège de l'Île in Prince Edward Island.

As a result, students who want to study in French have no choice but to travel and pay much higher costs than students who want to study in English at the University of Alberta, which may be on the corner of their street. In addition, Campus Saint-Jean does not offer graduate programs in French.

Therefore, the costs associated with the decision to study in French, whether at a bachelor's or graduate level, are higher.

[Maxime Blanchette-Joncas, Bloc, Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC]

So we can say that higher education is less accessible for francophone students outside Quebec than for anglophone students.

Knowing how important scientific research is to the affirmation, prosperity and empowerment of a community, we cannot ignore the seriousness of this situation.

What measures must be taken to put an end to this obvious discrimination experienced by francophone students?

[Martin Normand]

I think we need to take a step toward true equality in the post-secondary sector and take seriously some of the imperatives that are embedded in Bill C‑13. We will have to accept that there may be specific measures for francophone students, as well as as asymmetrical thinking on granting agency programs, including scholarships.

[Maxime Blanchette-Joncas, Bloc, Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Normand.

[The Chair, Liberal, Lloyd Longfield]

Thank you very much.

We're getting a lot of bases covered today.

We will go to Ms. Gazan for the last two and a half minutes.

[Leah Gazan, NDP, Winnipeg Centre, MB]

Thank you, Chair.

President Davidson, we spoke a bit, and you just briefly mentioned untraditional post-secondary students. I used to teach in a program called the access program. It was designed for “non-sequential” students and students coming from backgrounds of poverty. One of the pillars of the program was bursaries. I know we're talking about the graduate level, but how is the lack of financial bursaries impacting equity and equality in universities for people who want to pursue graduate studies?

[Paul Davidson]

This is another area where there's been some progress made in recent years, but there is more distance to go around removing barriers for accessibility, particularly for under-represented groups and under-represented students.

One thing the evidence has shown is that if you invest strategically and you have a system that's designed to meet these goals, you can do it. It's a question of money. It's also about system design, and the government has made some good investments in this area. There is still much more to be done.

Let's put it in economic and demographic terms. We have to increase labour force participation in this country. We have all sorts of talented people sitting on the edges, sitting on the margins. We have to bring them into colleges and universities at the undergraduate and graduate levels. Unless we do that, our standard of living will not support the quality of life we've come to expect.

[Leah Gazan, NDP, Winnipeg Centre, MB]

Would you argue that failing to do that negatively impacts the Canadian economy? We often talk about the Canadian economy. I've often put forward the high cost of poverty and the high cost of not investing in people. I would include in that access to education.

How badly is the failure to support folks currently impacting the economy? I would put education as a pillar for mobility in that discussion.

[Paul Davidson]

One of the key elements of increasing labour force participation, particularly for minority groups, is to make sure they have access to education and have wraparound supports. Ensure, first, that it's seeable and doable; second, that resources are there, provincial and federal; and third, that universities and colleges do more than put out a sign saying “Please come”. They have to reach into communities and start early.

There's all sorts of good work happening across the country, and this has been an area of real change over the last 15 years.

[The Chair, Liberal, Lloyd Longfield]

That's tremendous. Thank you both, and thank you to members for great questions and a wide-ranging discussion. I wish we had more time, but we don't.

For now, I'll thank Mr. Davidson and Mr. Normand for joining us for this study we're doing on the Government of Canada's graduate scholarship and post-doctoral fellowship programs. If you have more information you'd like to submit—I've mentioned the Harder report, “Rising to the Challenge of New Global Realities”—anything that can help us with our study would be appreciated.

For now, though, we'll be suspending briefly to allow our witnesses to leave, and then we will resume in camera.

For members on Zoom, could you use the second hyperlink the clerk sent out yesterday to join the in camera session? We'll see everybody in a few minutes.

[Proceedings continue in camera]