Science and Research Committee on Sept. 25th, 2023

[Dr. Joy Johnson]

I think that part of it has been the issue of privacy and how that data gets collected and stored and what we do with it. I think our colleague from the University of Saskatchewan also recognized that even, for example, self-reported indigenous identity is complicated. For that reason, other steps are being put in place to verify indigenous identity.

It's really about asking the right questions and making sure that you know how to deal with the data. Even around our indigenous data, we have to deal with issues of data sovereignty. Who's going to be able to access this best, and how are we going to report on it?

[Ben Lobb, Conservative, Huron—Bruce, ON]

I can see that on some of the specific ones in certain areas, but if you have male researchers and female researchers, it shouldn't take too much time for people to be able to put that list together—how much one makes versus the other—and sift through it.

I'm glad we put this study forward. I'll say that. I'm just confounded that universities, of all places, have shown up as a weak spot in this area. I just can't even believe it, to be honest with you.

Anyhow, thanks for coming and giving your explanations. I'm sorry I didn't get a chance to ask the doctor here a question.

[The Chair, Liberal, Lloyd Longfield]

You still have a minute, if anybody would like to share time.

[Ben Lobb, Conservative, Huron—Bruce, ON]

I would give it to Ms. Rempel Garner.

[Michelle Rempel, Conservative, Calgary Nose Hill, AB]

Thanks.

Dr. Johnson, I just want to follow up on the statement that you made, which my colleague picked up on, with regard to the pay equity gap between teaching staff and researchers. We had a witness before committee this week who stated, “men's earnings rise significantly with academic productivity, whereas women's do not.”

Can you and Airini elaborate on some of the reasons there's this “work harder but have less pay” dynamic that is emerging?

[Dr. Joy Johnson]

I think there are a variety of factors.

I just want to go back to the comment that was made earlier. We do have data on what I would say is the binary male-female data at the university. We also recognize that there is a spectrum of gender identities as well. We don't have that data to the degree that we really do need.

There are also these other factors that influence outcomes. In terms of—

[The Chair, Liberal, Lloyd Longfield]

We'll have to stop at that sentence. Maybe in the next round we can pick up where you've left off, if that's what the questioner would like.

It's over to David Lametti for six minutes, please.

[David Lametti, Liberal, LaSalle—Émard—Verdun, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, colleagues, for the warm welcome to this committee.

This issue is a life that I have lived for 20 years. I also lived it at the time vicariously through my ex-spouse. Both of us were academics in the same cohort, moving lockstep through the university.

There is an inbuilt bias, not with teaching positions but in actual positions. In our case, it was a third, a third and a third. A third was teaching, a third was research and a third was service. In all of the merit and promotion exercises, the third that was research was weighted way more heavily than the third that was service, and that ended up creating gaps exponentially over time because, as has been pointed out in one of the documents we have, women in particular are often more associated with the service side, for whatever reason.

I want to flip it around, particularly to President Johnson: Is there anything that's working?

We've had a really robust day care system in Quebec from the late 1990s. That certainly helped my family at the time. It helped two academics at the time. Are there regional differences based on policies such as day care or targeted policies that certain universities may have taken to address pay equity over the years? What's worked?

[Dr. Joy Johnson]

Yes, I think that some of the things have worked. I would certainly say that day care is one of them. We have day care on our campus that's available to our faculty and staff, but it's oversubscribed. There aren't enough spots. I think that can make a big difference.

The other thing that I think is working is a lot of the unconscious bias training that we're now doing for hiring committees. I think that's helping a great deal. There has been a tradition, to be frank, at universities that people basically replace themselves. You have a largely male, white faculty, and they think excellence looks like that. There's been this sense of replacement or seeing excellence as basically looking like a particular kind of productivity.

To your point as well, I think that there is also very good documentation that women have stepped up and engaged in more service at the universities by chairing committees, stepping up to be on working groups, etc. I think that department heads, chairs and deans are now looking at that very carefully to make sure that there is better distribution of that work.

I think these are some of the things that can help. I do believe that we need to continue to be thinking about reporting, being transparent about this, trying to move forward to help departments and faculties understand where these gaps are starting to exist and how they can redress them.

[David Lametti, Liberal, LaSalle—Émard—Verdun, QC]

Thank you for that.

Dr. Airini, you mentioned investment influence and information as something that we could do. You mentioned a positive example of what we've done thus far with the Canada research chairs. Is there a way to institutionalize those kinds of things without getting too much push-back from academics who say that they have enough reporting to do already? How can we thread that needle?

[Airini]

What we have is a sector that wants to make moves on the EDI representation within our researchers and within our academic community overall.

Where we actually have the data.... For Member Lobb, we have data available, and we're becoming more refined in the datasets. That can become a very compelling case, because it shows faculty members how close we are to the vision targets. In the case of the University of Saskatchewan, we have pay equity that favours women when looked at as a group overall. For the assistant professor, we're only a few points off, similar to the associate professor, so it shows progress.

When it comes to saying, “Let's take the next step and build incentives”, it all has a logic to it because it's part of the vision and part of the value set underpinning the university. For the University of Saskatchewan, diversity is one of our underpinning values.

[David Lametti, Liberal, LaSalle—Émard—Verdun, QC]

I have a quick question if I might, to either person, I think. Is it any better in unionized contexts than in non-unionized contexts?

I was in a non-unionized faculty that voted to unionize while I was here in Parliament, so I don't have any anecdotal evidence, but is it actually better in those areas where there's unionization?

[Dr. Joy Johnson]

I will respond.

[Airini]

Please go ahead, President.

[Dr. Joy Johnson]

I think it's actually hard to tell. We have a unionized faculty and they are certainly concerned about issues of pay equity, but they are also concerned about making sure that people who are in temporary roles get into permanent roles, so when we're trying to do some of the equity work we want to do, we also experience some constraints. For example, if you want to do targeted hires of indigenous faculty, that sometimes gets some push-back.

I think there are some very positive things about the unionized environment in terms of pushing administration, but there are also constraints.

[The Chair, Liberal, Lloyd Longfield]

You have 10 seconds or so, if you have....

[Airini]

Yes. It would be the same experience as well.

I'm noting that the movement to create a lift to base for women faculty was done in collaboration with the union. It means that all members can see this is something that not only the administration sees as important, but the members as well. Remember too that fundamentally, a collective agreement is a partnership. It's a signed agreement between the two parties—

[The Chair, Liberal, Lloyd Longfield]

That's great.

[Airini]

—so we go forward together.

[The Chair, Liberal, Lloyd Longfield]

Thank you very much.

We'll go to Mr. Blanchette-Joncas for six minutes.

[Maxime Blanchette-Joncas, Bloc, Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Greetings to the witnesses joining us for the second hour of the meeting.

My first question is for Ms. Johnson.

I took the time to analyze a report on a study on the gender wage gap in the faculty of Canadian universities. This study was conducted over a 10‑year period, from 1996 to 2016. Of course, it targeted the 15 largest Canadian universities. In that study, it was noted that men were, on average, paid 2.14% more than their female colleagues. The study also found that the gaps were even greater among Canada's major research universities, also known as the U15.

Ms. Johnson, do you have any hypotheses that explain why the wage gap between men and women is larger at the U15 Group of Canadian Research Universities?

[Dr. Joy Johnson]

Yes. Thank you for that question.

I think the gaps are larger in some of these institutions—I'm thinking of the University of Toronto, McGill, UBC, etc.—in part because we also see huge salary bands at these institutions and, particularly for certain areas like medicine and business, we tend to see higher salaries. I talked about these differentials that sometimes get offered in order to attract and retain certain faculty, and many of these areas are male-dominated areas. That's also why we see that kind of widening taking place.

That finding doesn't surprise me, because of that.

[Maxime Blanchette-Joncas, Bloc, Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC]

Thank you, Ms. Johnson.

I noticed that the two universities with the lowest gap are the only two francophone universities in Quebec, including the Université de Montréal, where the gap is 3.6%, and Université Laval, where the gap is 4.1%.

Can you explain to us why francophone Quebec universities are doing better in terms of pay equity within their faculty?

Are there lessons to be learned or academic practices that we should be looking at?

[Dr. Joy Johnson]

I'm happy to speculate. I don't know the answer 100%, but in part I'd like to refer back to the earlier question or comment about access to child care.

I think this is actually very important, because when women leave the workforce for a period of time for parental leave, if they aren't able to return in a timely manner or feel they can't find adequate child care, they stay away longer and the gap grows. I think access to really good, high-quality child care is essential. Quebec has nailed it.

[Maxime Blanchette-Joncas, Bloc, Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC]

Thank you very much, Ms. Johnson.

Can you talk about the data? I know that you already have data and that you would like to have more so that you can get a better picture of the situation.

Do your respective universities collect and share information on wage gaps between genders, between men and women? If so, what does that look like? Have there been any trends in recent years?