Science and Research Committee on Sept. 27th, 2023

[Ben Lobb, Conservative, Huron—Bruce, ON]

One thing I can remember from a while ago is that a few representatives said that, if the public safety department doesn't come in and tell them, it's very hard for them to truly know. I think that's a statement.

Is that now ongoing? Is that implemented at, say, the 15 universities you represent? Are public safety officials and all the hierarchy there coming into the universities and saying that you've submitted a list, you've checked them all off and you're good now? Is that mechanism in place now?

[Dr. Chad Gaffield]

You're touching on what I think is the key way in which we've been functioning and on the shared responsibility. The national intelligence services obviously have great capacity that we don't have on our campuses. We depend on that. They have now—

[Ben Lobb, Conservative, Huron—Bruce, ON]

Do the University of Waterloo or the University of Toronto, for example, now submit a list of proposed projects to the public safety department, and then they go through and vet them? Is that a system that's in place today?

[Dr. Chad Gaffield]

The guidelines call for a screening through the granting agencies. Ones that are deemed by the agencies to merit further investigation go to the public safety department. Then there's that confidential examination.

[Ben Lobb, Conservative, Huron—Bruce, ON]

I have just one last quick question.

We've mentioned the PRC. Is there any other foreign organization this committee should be concerned about that may be going down the same path that the PRC has?

[The Chair, Liberal, Lloyd Longfield]

Answer really briefly.

[Dr. Chad Gaffield]

Our approach is that no country, company or partner gets a free pass. Our research security policies and practices are designed for everyone. Obviously, our attention—

[The Chair, Liberal, Lloyd Longfield]

Thank you. That's great. I'll have to cut it there. We're on a tight schedule if we're going to get through it. I appreciate that.

I have Mr. Turnbull for five minutes, please.

[Ryan Turnbull, Liberal, Whitby, ON]

Thanks, Chair.

Thanks for the discussion. Thanks to the witnesses for being here today.

Mr. Stoff, I'll start with you.

We heard Mr. Gaffield say earlier that Canada's research security is “among the best in the world”. You are quoted in the Toronto Star not so long ago as saying, “Politicians in the U.S. are starting to have these conversations, but Canada can rightfully say they're leading the way”.

Mr. Stoff, can you tell us why you would say that?

[Jeffrey Stoff]

This was based on the policies I read about the federal funding agencies in Canada deploying specific restrictions moving forward—saying we're going to have certain blanket bans and deny funding if there's collaboration with high-risk candidates. It was based on that.

The U.S. government has not done that as explicitly. They are leaving too much to the individual institutions to figure out.

[Ryan Turnbull, Liberal, Whitby, ON]

If I'm not mistaken, you made those comments with regard to the entity list and the blanket ban on specific entities that would be coming forward. Is that right?

[Philip Landon]

Yes.

[Ryan Turnbull, Liberal, Whitby, ON]

Okay.

I understand that other countries have produced national security guidelines, just as Canada has this year, in 2023, which we heard about today.

I want to ask Mr. Landon about a jurisdictional issue.

My understanding is that a lot of provincial governments have cut back some of the core funding for universities across Canada, which means they're more reliant on international student fees and research funding to essentially stay afloat. Would you say that's true?

[Philip Landon]

That's a good question.

I would say that the amount of funding from provincial governments has decreased over the years, and universities have been making that up through international students to a certain extent. However, the research piece has been separate. The research funding does not go into the core budgets. It's focused on research and research offices.

[Ryan Turnbull, Liberal, Whitby, ON]

In terms of the federal jurisdiction, it's around the tri-councils and research funding. This is the lever the federal government has around research security. What roles do the provinces play in the shared responsibility framework you both talked about?

Mr. Landon, I'll go first to you, and then Mr. Gaffield.

[Philip Landon]

My understanding is that the provinces will potentially develop their own frameworks based on the federal framework. However, they are not themselves directly involved in the framework.

Mr. Gaffield may have a better understanding.

[Dr. Chad Gaffield]

The history of Canada demonstrates that federal leadership is absolutely essential in terms of signals that we're going to build a better country with respect to research and innovation. We all have to look to the federal government's leadership on this. That's how we went from being an intellectual colony as late as the 1950s and 1960s to moving onto the world stage. That was through federal leadership.

I think the provinces are looking for signals from the federal government about the importance of this. I would say that the more signals.... If the government can say, “This is a national priority for our country”, I think we can hope for better funding at the provincial level.

[Ryan Turnbull, Liberal, Whitby, ON]

Do you think the federal government is sending some of those signals?

[Dr. Chad Gaffield]

I think the last few years have been unsettling for us in terms of the kind of cultivation of the garden we need, particularly in this context, where we're not trying to maintain.... We shouldn't be just trying to maintain. We need to have real ambition. That's what will be called for in order for us to keep a place in this turbulent 21st century.

[Ryan Turnbull, Liberal, Whitby, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Gaffield.

In terms of defining sensitive research areas.... I know this goes to earlier questions about alternative or dual uses for research. I think some of that becomes challenging.

How do we balance that out, when we can identify areas? There is a lot of documentation on specific areas that would be sensitive research. When you're considering alternative or dual use, how do we balance this out? There's a natural tension in this work, I believe.

[Dr. Chad Gaffield]

It's very complicated.

All technology can be used for good or bad. We know that. Our challenge is to administer this in a way that's not going to undermine research in the areas Canada really needs. That's why research security work is complex and needs to be very sophisticated. It's in order to not ruin entire fields of research that are so important for Canada's future.

[The Chair, Liberal, Lloyd Longfield]

Thank you.

With five minutes left, we have two and a half minutes for the NDP and the Bloc.

Mr. Blanchette-Joncas, the floor is yours.

[Maxime Blanchette-Joncas, Bloc, Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair. You meant the Bloc, then the NDP.

I'm going to build on what Mr. Gaffield said about the importance of federal government leadership.

Last February, the federal government said that grant applications for research carried out in partnership with an institution representing a risk to national security would henceforth be refused. Last May, in an article in the Journal de Montréal, the Quebec government's Minister of Higher Education, Pascale Déry, said she was awaiting “clear directives” from the federal government, and declared, “I myself made representations to Minister Champagne. I haven't had an answer on that score, and I'm still waiting for one.” Cabinet then said it was in the process of drawing up a list of risky foreign research institutions. So it's been almost a year since it was announced that there would be no funding, but there's still no clarification.

Mr. Landon, I'd like you to clarify something for us. You represent the 97 universities in Canada. What do you expect from the federal government regarding the missing guidelines for national security in relation to research?

[Philip Landon]

In my opinion, the new list will be published soon. It will be useful for our community, as it will let it know how to move forward.

[Maxime Blanchette-Joncas, Bloc, Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC]

All right.

Mr. Gaffield, in February, the federal government made an announcement to counter espionage. We were told they'd be back with a list. Today is September 27. Have you seen this list?