Science and Research Committee on Oct. 4th, 2023

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Corey Tochor]

Thank you so much for that.

Moving on now to our five-minute round, we have MP Soroka from the Conservatives.

Mr. Soroka, the floor is yours.

[Gerald Soroka, Conservative, Yellowhead, AB]

Thanks, Mr. Chair, and thanks and to the witnesses again.

I'll start off with Ms. Karaskova.

In many of your articles and even today you spoke about the economic co-operation between Europe and the People's Republic of China. I'm just curious, though, given that we've now seen in Canada the People's Republic of China's political influence through our economy, and now through our academic institutions, and potentially even our electoral system, what do you think can be done to stop this intensive PRC influence across Canadian society?

[Dr. Ivana Karaskova]

It's a very broad question. I will try to tackle it in the few minutes that I have.

Broadly, once again, we have to call a spade a spade. Don't just hide it behind very vague statements, but be more open about what is actually problematic in Chinese influence or interference. Here I am alluding a little bit towards what you mentioned, and that's the interference in our electoral systems. As Jim mentioned, probably more transparency would beneficial in this respect. That's one thing.

The other one, of course, is raising awareness as the second step, based on more transparency from our side.

Third is basically identifying the loopholes we have in the system. China, the other actor, is not creating the loopholes. These already exist within our societies, either within societal divisions or through the lack of legislative actions on different loopholes in different areas.

[Gerald Soroka, Conservative, Yellowhead, AB]

If you have more that you wish to put forward in writing, I would be fine with that as well.

You mentioned that European governments are starting to put in place some policies. Do you think some of those policies would benefit Canada at the same time?

[Dr. Ivana Karaskova]

I think it's more or less leaning in the same direction. Though the approaches may vary, they may be coming back to this recommendation of the European Commission. It would probably have been more powerful if it were a different form of legislation. It is actually moving in the same areas, and also outlining the same areas that need to be tackled, which are semiconductors, artificial intelligence, quantum, biotech and all the others.

One more thought on this is that none of the allied countries should be left out, because what our research also proved is that if China can't find the technology in a more technologically advanced country, it will focus on those loopholes. It will find countries that have pockets of excellence in different areas of research but probably don't have much of the safeguards.

[Gerald Soroka, Conservative, Yellowhead, AB]

They're just looking for great opportunities.

I will cede my remaining time to Mr. Lobb.

[Ben Lobb, Conservative, Huron—Bruce, ON]

Thanks, Mr. Soroka.

This question is for Mr. Hinton.

At our last meeting, Dr. Chad Gaffield was here, representing U15. I'm sure you're very familiar with him. He's a nice individual.

I asked him some questions, and he said that he thought all of us today can feel very confident that our research on our campuses is being undertaken in secure ways that do not threaten us.

Mr. Hinton, do you think that's the way it is, or is there still some room for improvement?

[Jim Hinton]

With due respect to the lobbyists who appeared before that committee—and I watched it intently—that was a very interesting response.

Not enough is happening. From my perspective and from the public's perspective, the U15 universities in Canada were caught red-handed, benefiting themselves at the expense of national security, and then had the gall to ask for more money, saying they were not getting enough.

I'm not impressed with what the group said. Acknowledging there was a mistake and saying they're going to correct it was probably the more appropriate response, but to me, saying that everything is humming along well signals that there is still a failure of governance and leadership.

[Ben Lobb, Conservative, Huron—Bruce, ON]

I have one last question about something that surprised me a bit. At the end of our conversation, the answer was that we should leave it up to the granting agencies and Public Safety Canada, but there are really no checks and balances. It's just all based on good hopes.

What do you think about that?

[Jim Hinton]

Despite being world-renowned academics, they continue to confuse science and research with innovation. Innovation is about economic use of science and research, and universities are not the ones that are extracting economic value from the research. Firms are doing that.

They talk a lot about talent and talent creation, but that is just the starting point. There need to be organizations and firms that receive that talent, generate intellectual property, commercialize it and make money globally from that spot. To say that everything is working is not accurate.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Corey Tochor]

Thank you so much for that.

We'll move on to Valerie Bradford from the Liberals for five minutes.

[Valerie Bradford, Liberal, Kitchener South—Hespeler, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair, and thank you to our witnesses for freeing up time for this very important study. We really appreciate your input.

Research security is obviously a very serious issue, and it needs to be addressed. However, I've heard of instances and worries of racism, discrimination and bias towards researchers of Chinese origin as a result of some of the intense commentary on the issue.

Dr. Gamache, what is the impact on the research community in this regard?

[Dr. Kevin Gamache]

Certainly that can be an issue.

Unfortunately, based upon what I have seen, the behaviour that we're talking about today is being exhibited more by one country than by any other, and that leads to an opportunity for somebody to make this an issue of racism or xenophobia. That can have a chilling effect, and I think it has had a chilling effect, but once again, I think that is all the more reason that we need to focus on the behaviour rather than on countries, because this is a very serious problem.

Our research across the entire A&M system in 2021 demonstrated to us that 80% of the problematic collaborations were coming from a single country. Those were just the statistical facts. Because of that, I think it's easy to make it something that it isn't, and we need to focus on the behaviour.

[Valerie Bradford, Liberal, Kitchener South—Hespeler, ON]

Thank you for that.

Can you comment on the harm that could be done if the issue isn't addressed in the right way? For example, some people are calling for a complete ban on all research with China and collaboration with Chinese researchers.

[Dr. Kevin Gamache]

I think the research enterprise is something very special. It is designed the way it is for a reason. It is based on free and open collaboration and the exchange of ideas. It is based upon reciprocity. It's based upon transparency.

My fear is that we have an adversary who has taken every strength of our research enterprise and has turned it into a vulnerability. We run the risk, if we don't handle this properly, of breaking a system that's very important to us, and that is my biggest fear.

Along with that, if these sensitive issues aren't handled properly, certainly there is an opportunity to ruin careers and to make it an issue of xenophobia where no xenophobia exists.

Once again, I think we have to handle the solutions to these problems very carefully.

[Valerie Bradford, Liberal, Kitchener South—Hespeler, ON]

Thank you.

Dr. Karaskova, you mentioned about 10 critical technologies that are enabling and transformative, and the risk of their misuse.

What about evergreen entities and a list of sensitive areas of research that could be informed by the work being done by the European Commission? Do you have any thoughts on that?

[Dr. Ivana Karaskova]

No, not particularly, so I do apologize. It's not specifically my area.

Could you perhaps rephrase that? Otherwise, I will cede my time to others if they want to comment.

[Valerie Bradford, Liberal, Kitchener South—Hespeler, ON]

Okay. I was just wondering, if there are evergreen entities and if they could be listed, whether that would help inform some of the work that is being done by the European Commission. Do you have any thoughts on that?

[Dr. Ivana Karaskova]

I'm sorry. I don't have any thoughts on this one, but I'd be happy to elaborate in my written testimony.

[Valerie Bradford, Liberal, Kitchener South—Hespeler, ON]

Okay.

I guess my time is pretty much up.

If you want to give that question a little more thought and research, could you send us something in writing? Thank you.

[Dr. Ivana Karaskova]

I will.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Corey Tochor]

Thank you kindly.

We're now moving on to our final two-and-a-half minute rounds.

For the Bloc, we have MP Blanchette-Joncas. The floor is yours for two and a half minutes.

[Maxime Blanchette-Joncas, Bloc, Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Mr. Hinton, it's a pleasure to have you back as a witness.

I listened to your recommendations carefully. You would like to see greater transparency and a better relationship with universities to increase confidence, security, dialogue and collaboration. You also talked about ways to protect the knowledge economy within the education sector in order to benefit from it.

You raised a very important point: leadership, in other words, bringing the experts together to establish best practices, better ways of doing things and, above all, clear guidelines around national security and research.

Back in February, the federal government announced that it was going to ask universities to comply with a list of institutions that could no longer receive funding and with which they could no longer collaborate. The announcement was made in February. My fellow members and I asked witnesses about this during the committee's last study. It's October, and still no list.

I'd like to hear your views on that, since you're a university professor. Does that undermine collaborative projects you're planning in the university sector?

[Jim Hinton]

Yes, not having clear guidelines and a clear list to help guide researchers on who to work with and who not to work with is absolutely slowing things down and stifling opportunity to research.

We need to move quickly on this. As Kevin aptly pointed out, there are a number of lists and there are places to start. We're late to the party here, but a lot of other people have already started dancing and we can jump in time and continue on. We don't need to build this from scratch.

[Maxime Blanchette-Joncas, Bloc, Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Hinton.

Some provinces didn't wait for the federal government's guidelines and decided to establish their own guidelines for their universities.

Given your experience as a professor, will the situation become so serious that universities will empower themselves to ensure their own security, if they don't receive any guidelines from the federal government?