Evidence of meeting #56 for Science and Research in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was faculty.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Jim Hinton  Intellectual Property Lawyer, As an Individual
Ivana Karaskova  China Projects Lead, Association for International Affairs (AMO), As an Individual
Kevin Gamache  Associate Vice Chancellor and Chief Research Security Officer, Texas A and M University System Research Security Office
Susan Prentice  Professor, University of Manitoba, As an Individual
Heather Boon  Vice-Provost, Faculty and Academic Life, University of Toronto
Tina Chen  Vice-Provost, Equity, University of Manitoba

5:30 p.m.

Intellectual Property Lawyer, As an Individual

Jim Hinton

Yes. We've seen that Alberta is a particular example, and Quebec, as you know, has Axelys and other programs that are working very closely with universities.

A lot of this is a provincial matter, so the provinces need to step up as well, but it is also federal, provincial and the universities. Everybody has to be responsible. It's my responsibility, as somebody who sees this happening, to not stay quiet about it.

It's only because of Sean Silcoff, Christine Dobby and the others at The Globe and Mail, like Bob Fife and Steve Chase, who picked up on this story in May 2018 and before. They saw there was a lot going on and asked why 13 Canadian universities were systematically pulling IP out of the universities while the same time, later that year, the two Michaels were detained for over 1,019 days.

It's something that we need to be acutely aware of, and the provinces are integral to making sure that this is successful.

5:30 p.m.

Conservative

The Vice-Chair Conservative Corey Tochor

Thank you.

Now we're moving on to our last two-and-a-half-minute round. From the NDP, we have MP Johns.

5:30 p.m.

NDP

Gord Johns NDP Courtenay—Alberni, BC

Thank you. I'm going to stay on that same thread with Mr. Hinton.

We've heard witnesses say that we need to be on guard not just against China, but against many countries. In terms of ensuring the best way to ensure IP security, we talked about how it can't simply be fewer banned entities—my colleague just asked about that—but that researchers should be given the training on how to spot security threats.

Mr. Hinton, can you talk about that? Who should lead, in terms of ensuring that training takes place?

5:30 p.m.

Intellectual Property Lawyer, As an Individual

Jim Hinton

There's a great program, IP Ontario, that began relatively recently, about a year ago. It is working collaboratively. My friend Peter Cowan heads that initiative. On the IP front, it's working to improve IP literacy across the province, both within companies and at the institutions.

A similar approach would be working to build programming by building off of those best practices globally. We have these great experts here. Build off of those, customize it for Canada and then deploy it.

Really, I think it's the federal and provincial governments working collaboratively, as well as the universities. They do education better than anybody else in the country, so who better to be involved with building education programs than the institutions themselves, since they need to learn more and be better aware of the issues?

5:30 p.m.

NDP

Gord Johns NDP Courtenay—Alberni, BC

Can we go back to the recommendation made by the special committee on the Canada-People's Republic of China relationship, in terms of the report of threat to Canadian sovereignty? It reads:

That the Government of Canada explore the possibility of issuing security clearances for key individuals in the non-profit sector, private sector, universities, and research institutions to allow them to receive comprehensive briefings from Canada's security and intelligence agencies so that they could take appropriate steps to protect their intellectual property.

Mr. Hinton, could you speak about your thoughts on that recommendation?

5:30 p.m.

Intellectual Property Lawyer, As an Individual

Jim Hinton

Knowing CSIS and the great work that they do, I know a lot of the information today is really one way. They gather information and evidence and then they pull it back. Have some of the information come the other way and share what it is and how to approach it, as Kevin pointed out. Share what behaviours they should be on guard for and how to manage that.

Really, with a lot of the institutions that I work with, it's inventor-owned policies. The researchers themselves are left a lot times to their own devices. It's recognizing that and then building programming resources to be able to initiate that.

5:30 p.m.

Conservative

The Vice-Chair Conservative Corey Tochor

Thank you.

We are concluding our round of questioning, but as the chair, I will take the prerogative to ask one question of Mr. Hinton.

You were talking about Huawei and the IP that was filed that was paid for by taxpayers. I just want to confirm the times. We know that the two Michaels were picked up, I believe, in late 2018. You're saying four years later IP was registered that was taxpayer-funded and that any profits or protection of that patent would go to the benefit of China, paid for by Canadian taxpayers. Is that correct?

5:35 p.m.

Intellectual Property Lawyer, As an Individual

Jim Hinton

From my understanding, that is absolutely correct. I have a patent in front of me here today that was published in September of 2023. It lists Huawei Technologies Canada and the governing council of the University of Toronto. I mentioned others. There are other examples. In many cases, and likely in this case, all of the commercial rights to this property that was invented by Canadian academics and funded by Canadian academics, at least in part, are owned exclusively by Huawei.

If a Canadian company wanted to do what Canadian taxpayers paid for through the invention that happened at the University of Toronto or the other 19 research institutions, they would be legally prohibited from doing so under the patent. We created a property and gave it to Huawei so they could sue us and prevent us from doing this, and this is just the tip of the iceberg.

5:35 p.m.

Conservative

The Vice-Chair Conservative Corey Tochor

Just to clarify on this technology, it's horrendous to think that the Canadian taxpayers have paid for that and that the benefit is going to flow out of the country.

I have one follow-up question. Obviously it's Huawei, so it's communication. It's technology that could be used against us. I'm assuming that it's not just for financial gain for their country but also for espionage and other questionable uses. Am I right?

5:35 p.m.

Intellectual Property Lawyer, As an Individual

Jim Hinton

You are, and those relate to 5G, something that we have to use. I pick up my cellphone here, and it's in 5G. I'm paying royalties under that patent licence on standard essential patents to use that property, again after having paid for it as a Canadian taxpayer. There's a problem there.

Then when it gets into artificial intelligence—and some of these technologies relate to that—of course AI can be used for nefarious purposes. We've seen certain published patents for the automatic profiling of ethnic minorities. These things are very problematic. The faster you can image somebody from a street camera and understand their ethnic profile, the more that can be used in nefarious ways—

5:35 p.m.

Liberal

Lena Metlege Diab Liberal Halifax West, NS

Mr. Chair, we're losing a lot of time from the next study. If it was the same study, I may not be—

5:35 p.m.

Conservative

The Vice-Chair Conservative Corey Tochor

We will endeavour.

I want to thank the witnesses for being here today. I apologize for cutting you off. To the members, we like to hear the witnesses fully, and I don't like cutting off MPs unless they are gaming the system to get more time in.

With that, we're going to conclude our panel. Thank you again. We'll stand suspended and we'll set up the next panel.

Thank you very much.

5:40 p.m.

Conservative

The Vice-Chair Conservative Corey Tochor

Thank you so much. We're going to get started on our second panel.

Today we have three witnesses. We're going to start with the University of Manitoba and Dr. Susan Prentice.

The floor is yours for five minutes.

October 4th, 2023 / 5:40 p.m.

Dr. Susan Prentice Professor, University of Manitoba, As an Individual

Thank you very much for the opportunity to address your committee on pay inequity for systemically marginalized academics. I commend you for studying this issue, which persists despite decades of evidence.

To situate my comments, you may wish to know I'm one of the eight faculty who successfully launched a human rights complaint against inequity in the Canada research chairs program and that I have written and published about systemic discrimination in higher education. From 2016 to 2019, I was co-chair of a University of Manitoba joint committee on gender-based salary differentials.

Joining me is Dr. Tina Chen, the inaugural vice-provost of equity at the University of Manitoba. Dr. Chen was recently awarded the first-ever Robbins-Ollivier Award for Excellence in Equity for a project on dismantling ableism and promoting equity for persons with disabilities through institutional action and accountability. Dr. Chen was also a member of that joint U of M salary committee.

I want to talk a little bit about the history at our university and I want to go back to 1994. In 1994, prompted by demands of the professors' union, the University of Manitoba studied pay gaps between male and female academics. A gap was found and a flat 2.84% pay increase to base salary was ordered for all women faculty. That award was paid out over two years, did not include any back pay and made no pension corrections.

Later, an unfunded research team that included me re-examined faculty pay, and we found gaps. Our paper was published in 2011. That prompted pay fairness to become a bargaining demand in 2016 when the joint committee was struck.

I want to talk about this committee. Our committee's work was, regrettably, restricted only to women faculty, and we did not disaggregate our data. Our report was only on one axis of discrimination, and even that was treated as a binary. These are real limitations, but let me tell you what we found nonetheless.

Our 2019 report found very different wage profiles for women and men in faculty and instructor ranks. Long story short, tests of statistical significance were deemed necessary, and our results did not prove statistically significant, despite being highly suggestive. Our report did find statistically significant differentials in the time to promotion to full professor—a full 18 months between women and men. We learned that from year 12 onward, women were 15.5% less likely than men to hold the rank of full professor. While all women are less likely to be promoted to professor at year 12 and beyond, the lower likelihood is particularly pronounced at our medical campus, as well as in science and engineering.

Our joint committee made seven recommendations. Among them were annual salary scrutiny and a written report of such analyses at least every five years. We recommended study into career progression to understand why women are 15.5% less likely than men to be full professors at year 12. We recommended qualitative and survey research into male and female workloads, into women's slower career progress, into differences in employment past age 65 and other climate-related issues. We also recommended study into different dimensions of salary inequity, specifically into gaps in members' pension fund accounts, which, of course, affect lifelong earnings. To my knowledge, none of our recommendations have been implemented.

This very abbreviated history of sex-based differentials at our prairie university holds some lessons. I will argue our story is representative. Where salary gaps have been studied, the impetus is nearly universally a result of the volunteer work of researchers, faculty caucuses or unions, rather than management. Regular monitoring is rarely implemented, and there is little accountability. Such ad hocery would be mitigated if there were more robust Statistics Canada reporting through the University and College Academic Staff System survey. For this to be meaningful, institutions would require more internal attention and capacity to monitor equity data, likely through dedicated funds, including a Dimensions stream.

There are two key points I would ask you to take away.

The first is that it's very clear that we need data on equity in order to take action. This includes, importantly, data for faculty with disabilities, a group of our colleagues who are rarely tracked or reported for complex reasons you may ask me about. A way to track this data for equity could be to enhance compliance requirements through the federal contractors compliance program and through a strengthened Employment Equity Act and Pay Equity Act.

A second key point is to underscore that under austerity, most Canadian universities have seen shifts in their ratios of tenure-stream appointments and a rise in non-standard academic employment. Dubbed “the precariat”, these colleagues are disproportionately racialized and gendered. Such work exacerbates precarity for women, for indigenous people, for 2SLGBT+ people and for faculty with disabilities. Faculty renewal is essential in order to be able to offer meritorious colleagues fairness and full-time employment.

I hope you are aware that national data tells us that the numbers of those who are working in post-secondary education but who are off the tenure track have grown by 500% in the last 20 years. Across Canada, full-time university student enrolment has grown by 18% from 2010 to 2020, but full-time faculty numbers rose by just 6% in the same period.

With these takeaways, and in preparing us for discussion, I'll conclude by underscoring that there is a fiction that the academy is a place of simple and pure merit, and that this fiction goes a long way toward explaining historical resistance to grappling with documented histories of exclusion, marginalization and systemic discrimination.

Despite it being 2023, there remain demonstrable barriers to equitable faculty salaries for professors of different genders and from systemically marginalized groups. Your committee is in a position to make recommendations that can help change that.

5:50 p.m.

Conservative

The Vice-Chair Conservative Corey Tochor

Thank you so much.

Next up, from the University of Toronto, we have Dr. Boon.

The floor is yours for five minutes.

5:50 p.m.

Prof. Heather Boon Vice-Provost, Faculty and Academic Life, University of Toronto

Thank you Mr. Chair.

Perhaps I should briefly introduce myself. I have been a faculty member at the University of Toronto since 1999. I served as the dean of the Leslie Dan faculty of pharmacy from 2014 to 2018. I currently serve as vice-provost for faculty and academic life, and I've done so for the last five years. In that role, I oversee faculty human resource matters, including faculty salaries at the university.

As noted by Susan, the issue of pay equity at universities in Canada and at peer institutions around the world has received significant study over the past decade and beyond. We are happy to see the committee taking up this issue. Hopefully, some of the findings that we are able to share will assist you in your deliberations.

I've provided to the committee a report from 2019 entitled "Report of the Provostial Advisory Group on Faculty Gender Pay Equity". It outlines the rigorous approach that we've taken at the University of Toronto to address this issue.

We developed a statistical model that allows us to identify the closest peer-to-peer comparisons of men's and women's faculty salaries, taking into account individual differences with respect to experience, field of study and a few other relevant factors.

For a bit of context before I provide the results of that study, at the University of Toronto we have two primary categories of faculty that have permanent appointments: the tenure stream and the teaching stream.

With respect to the tenure stream, our analysis found differences in salaries of men and women and found that they were primarily explained by experience in the field of study. After we controlled for experience and field of study, we also found that, on average, our tenured and tenure stream women faculty at the university earned 1.3% less than comparably situated faculty who were men.

Our analysis didn't find any significant differences between salaries of men and women in our teaching stream.

In response to this, effective July 1, 2019, every woman faculty member who was tenured or in the tenure stream at the University of Toronto received a 1.3% increase to her base salary in order to compensate for the difference that we found.

I want to share a couple of key lessons we learned in doing these analyses.

First of all, two key variables dramatically impact salaries and thus need to be controlled for in any analysis: experience and field of study. It's perhaps obvious to say that someone with 25 years of job experience is going to have a higher salary than someone with only one year of experience. Since newer faculty are more likely to be female at the university and more senior faculty are more likely to be male, you can't simply compare the mean salaries of all men and all women at the university, because that confounds gender and experience. Any analysis of salary equity must control for this.

Similarly, we must control for fields of study, because there are significant differences in salaries across different fields of study. For example, fields of management or law have higher salaries for faculty members than other fields of study, due primarily to market forces, which are at least partially driven by the fact that these faculty members could earn higher salaries in the private sector.

As Susan noted, we believe it's really important to review any salary analysis periodically. At the University of Toronto, we have committed to doing this review every five years. We are currently in the process of redoing our analysis to see if the changes that we made back in 2019 are holding. I don't have the results yet, but the preliminary analysis suggests that we do not currently have any differences in pay for faculty who are men and faculty who are women once we control for experience and field of study. We will be making this report public as as soon as it is completed.

A couple of other things I wanted to note are that any gender pay equity strategy needs to consider a range of things. One of those things is thinking about diversity in hiring. At the university, currently about half of all new hires in both our tenure and our teaching stream are women. We need to keep monitoring that to ensure that we are thinking very carefully about who we are hiring.

We also need to think about how we pay their starting salaries when we hire new people. At the University of Toronto, all new hires are approved centrally and their salaries are approved centrally, based on an analysis of the rank at which they are being hired, the time since their highest degree—which is a proxy for experience—and field of study.

We've engaged hundreds of faculty members and administrators involved in hiring or career review decisions in unconscious bias training, workshops and discussions. These evidence-based, faculty-led discussions have been vital in helping to keep issues of equity top of mind across the university in order to ensure the equity pay gap does not re-emerge now that we have rectified it.

I hope some of these lessons learned from our work are helpful in your ongoing deliberations on this matter.

5:55 p.m.

Conservative

The Vice-Chair Conservative Corey Tochor

Thank you so much for the testimony.

Now, for our first round of questioning, we have, from the Conservatives, MP Michelle Rempel Garner for six minutes.

The floor is yours.

5:55 p.m.

Conservative

Michelle Rempel Conservative Calgary Nose Hill, AB

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

I'll start with Dr. Prentice.

I want to give you a bit of a chance to expand on your recommendation for better data.

Do you have a more detailed recommendation the committee could consider on where that data gathering might fall within the federal government's purview?

5:55 p.m.

Professor, University of Manitoba, As an Individual

Dr. Susan Prentice

Thank you for the question and the chance to clarify.

Under an enhanced federal contractors program,I think universities will be required to report more robustly. They would need to internally track the kind of data that would allow them to report to the federal government. I think that is one mechanism under your direct control. That's probably the biggest and most important one.

The other one—

5:55 p.m.

Conservative

Michelle Rempel Conservative Calgary Nose Hill, AB

Are you suggesting that universities would put together a standardized tracking system that would be reported through...what mechanism? Is it tri-council funding? What would it be attached to, in terms of federal government purview?

5:55 p.m.

Professor, University of Manitoba, As an Individual

Dr. Susan Prentice

Well, the federal contractors program used to ask any university that did more than $200,000 worth of business with the federal government to make a report. The threshold has gone up over the years. Through that requirement, there was a mechanism by which there was accountability outside of the university.

One of the pressure points that I think need to be strengthened is that although Institutional autonomy needs respecting, there also needs to be accountability. Universities themselves, if required to report externally, will pay more attention internally.

5:55 p.m.

Conservative

Michelle Rempel Conservative Calgary Nose Hill, AB

Got it.

5:55 p.m.

Professor, University of Manitoba, As an Individual

Dr. Susan Prentice

That's where I think the federal contractors program could be a tool in helping to mitigate pay inequity.

5:55 p.m.

Conservative

Michelle Rempel Conservative Calgary Nose Hill, AB

Thank you.

I'm enjoying questioning the leaders of my alma mater, so there's that.

Dr. Chen, part of what we're trying to determine in this committee is what sorts of recommendations could be used that are within federal jurisdiction. A lot of the issues that have been raised before us seem to be more institution-based or embedded within the provincial governments. I appreciate, for example, what Dr. Prentice just said.

On some of the matters that you raised, I'm wondering, again, whether there are specific action items within the federal government's purview that don't necessarily blur the lines between those jurisdictions. For example, the current Quebec education minister raised some concerns that the DEI standards for Canada research chairs are a bit of an incursion into provincial jurisdiction. What sorts of recommendations do you have for the committee in order to narrow that scope, perhaps, and avoid that pratfall?

6 p.m.

Dr. Tina Chen Vice-Provost, Equity, University of Manitoba

I think that's a very good question.

When we're talking about data collection and thinking about the federal scope, I would encourage everyone to think about the way StatsCan's disaggregated data action plan should be implemented nationwide with regard to the types of collection of data. The disaggregated data action plan is calling on us not only to move beyond gender-based or just sex data but also to think about where we are looking to identify systemic inequities—and to use that, then, to track the ways in which we work to narrow those inequities. Applying an expectation within all areas, including through post-secondary, that we're working in accordance with that disaggregated data action plan is a key part.

I'm also looking forward to some of us hearing the results of what UCAS, the Unis and Colleges Admissions Service, did in their pilot study. This was using human resources data and trying to create a more unified form. Now, this is one issue where there's an expectation or a sense that perhaps we'd be collecting the data around equity, diversity and inclusion—demographic data—in a consistent manner. I'm not sure whether all those who signed up as part of Dimensions have actually followed through on that and are collecting the same way, but I think this is another way of bridging together the national initiatives—things that are happening at the federal level—with what's happening locally.

Then, the other realm, I would say, is thinking about administrative data. How do we actually make those links to administrative data, much like in the health realms? How do we think about joining the systems so we're also not thinking about survey fatigue?