Science and Research Committee on Oct. 4th, 2023

[Michelle Rempel, Conservative, Calgary Nose Hill, AB]

That's very helpful.

Other points that have stuck with me throughout the committee study have been Dr. Smith-Carrier's statement that men's earnings rise significantly with academic productivity, whereas women's do not.

Perhaps I will ask both VP levels at the University of Toronto as well as the University of Manitoba. Is this a statement that still resonates within the data you have at your institutions?

I will start with the U of T, the centre of the universe for western Canadians.

[Prof. Heather Boon]

It's not the centre of the universe, but I will say that our analysis doesn't show that at the moment. The analysis we did quite clearly shows we no longer have a difference between men's and women's salaries at the university. The difference we did find in 2019 was quite small.

I don't think it—

[Michelle Rempel, Conservative, Calgary Nose Hill, AB]

I'm sorry. I'm running out of time.

Are intellectual property ownership and technology commercialization factored into the conversation of gender pay gaps that you're aware of?

Perhaps I will go back to my colleague at the University of Manitoba in her new role as a DI lead, a Dimensions initiative lead, and ask whether or not that is something she has thought about.

[Dr. Tina Chen]

I don't—

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Corey Tochor]

We're going to ask for that in written form. We're over time on that one.

[Michelle Rempel, Conservative, Calgary Nose Hill, AB]

Okay.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Corey Tochor]

Now it's over to the Liberal Party and MP Jaczek.

I would like to remind all members to have their mikes turned off when they are not asking questions in the room. Thank you very much.

The floor is yours.

[Helena Jaczek, Liberal, Markham—Stouffville, ON]

Thank you, Chair.

Thank you to our three witnesses for all the work they have been doing on this very important question through the years.

I'm relatively new to this committee. I think it was you, Dr. Chen, who referenced the Dimensions initiative. As I understand it, this was administered by the Natural Sciences and Engineering Research Council, NSERC, for the three federal granting agencies, obviously providing a handbook to try to help post-secondary institutions to increase equity, diversity and inclusion in their environments.

I think, Dr. Chen, you made reference to this particular initiative and talked about renewing it. Perhaps you could elaborate a little bit on what, in your view, the federal government could do to improve this existing initiative.

[Dr. Tina Chen]

Thank you for that question and for that reference.

I'm particularly interested in what was launched just last year in trying to think through what it would mean to modernize the university and the college academic staff survey, particularly thinking about EDI and the inclusion of part-time faculty, part-time instructors. I think Dr. Prentice already spoke to how that's a big part of the pay equity considerations at the moment.

In order to lead this, we really need nationally, with the pilot that was launched, to try to include this and think about what that would mean. I think it will yield for us a number of considerations as we look across the nation. We know that in the hiring process, our salaries are driven not only by what's happening within our institutions but obviously also by their relation to each other, and this study continues to need to be funded.

I think we also know that the Dimensions initiative and certainly the StatsCan work that we all rely upon are also dependent on the long-form census, asking extensive questions and funding the labour surveys and doing all of that work. I think with the funding particularly over the last two decades, sometimes programs have been pulled back, and then they are reintroduced. This really creates barriers to that kind of robust data that's necessary for us to locate the specific institutional responses.

I will stop there. I think the others probably think quite a bit about Dimensions as well, so they may also have input.

[Helena Jaczek, Liberal, Markham—Stouffville, ON]

Thank you so much.

I am intrigued by the federal contractors program. We did receive a submission from the Canadian Association of University Teachers dated September 2023. The recommendation there is to strengthen the federal contractors program.

Dr. Prentice, perhaps you could be very specific as to what you would like to see in terms of strengthening the federal contractors program.

[Dr. Susan Prentice]

This is a long-standing program of the federal government. I think it dates back nearly three decades now.

Under the federal contractors program, any university that has a contract with the federal government is required to report. Contracts through tri-council and other grants are the way most of us fund our research and the way many universities find other operating streams. We are required to report, and one of the requirements for reporting has included.... Again, it began with gender-disaggregated data, but it could—and should, I would say—be strengthened so that it includes other axes of inequity.

What this will require is for universities to meet reporting requirements and the kind of accountability that comes from external scrutiny, which pushes, nudges and coaxes equity-enhancing behaviour inside universities.

The threshold was moved too high. At one point, it was $200,000. It's now up to over $1 million on each one, so the threshold could come down. The CAUT probably has a closer handle on how this operates nationally, but I'm aware that at the University of Manitoba, historically some of the women's groups on campus had to go to the federal contractors compliance reports to learn about what was happening inside our own universities.

The creation of data for equity has a very positive cascade effect that can allow other people to use it.

[Helena Jaczek, Liberal, Markham—Stouffville, ON]

Thank you.

There was a third recommendation in this submission to facilitate the renewal of faculty.

Dr. Boon, perhaps you could address this particular area and elaborate a bit on what precisely the recommendation would mean for the federal government.

[Prof. Heather Boon]

Sure. As I mentioned, we've been thinking a lot about this. When we do have the opportunity to hire, we're ensuring that we are doing searches that are targeted at encouraging the widest range of people to apply, making sure that we are tracking who is successful in our searches and thinking a lot about whether there any unconscious biases creeping into our processes, to do our best to ensure that we're being open and welcoming to all.

As we look at whom we're bringing into our community, we know, as I mentioned earlier, that in the last 15 years or so, we've almost reached gender parity with respect to women and men at the assistant and the associate professor ranks. That reflects hiring over the last 15 years or so. In the last few years that I've been in this role and looking at whom we're hiring each year, we know that we are hiring about 50% women each year, sometimes slightly over that, into our continuing tenure stream and teaching stream positions.

We are also thinking a lot about other axes of diversity and enacting programs to ensure that we are welcoming and hiring a wide range of faculty.

Those are, I think, all things that are really important as part of any program in this space.

[Helena Jaczek, Liberal, Markham—Stouffville, ON]

Thank you so much.

[Corey Tochor, Conservative, Saskatoon—University, SK]

Thank you.

We'll now go to the Bloc for six minutes. Maxime, the floor is yours.

[Maxime Blanchette-Joncas, Bloc, Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Welcome to the witnesses joining us for this study.

Ms. Chen, as you no doubt know, pay equity and university administration fall largely under the jurisdiction of Quebec and the provinces. Some federal programs address equity by imposing equity, diversity and inclusion criteria, without necessarily addressing pay equity per se.

I'd like to keep the focus on what falls under federal jurisdiction, including the federal contractors program, the three granting councils and the Canada research chairs program. I'm curious to hear your views.

As I see it, there is equity recognition for those who belong to under-represented groups, but are there really mechanisms to ensure pay equity in programs that the federal government is directly responsible for?

[Dr. Tina Chen]

Thank you for your question.

When we are talking about pay equity, I think we are thinking about the various ways in which compensation happens in these fields. When we think about those programs, whether it's through the Canada research chairs program or through some of the granting councils, to my knowledge, there are not many studies that look at the gender inequities in the types of awards that are being made.

What we do know from research is that there are, in fact, discrepancies and inequities in what people will ask for in their research requests. Particularly, those who are systemically marginalized do not ask for the biggest sums of money. They don't go after the biggest grants. If they tell you it's a $300,000 to $500,000 request, many will ask for what they think is the minimum necessary to do it, and they will proceed to do that work, whereas those who situate themselves in places of privilege will often ask for more. They will go to the maximum amount.

In light of the previous question, given the way that many institutions operate—they start to talk about the value and about merit pay and give rewards to people that are often based on the number of dollars that come in—there are ways of making us more aware of the ways that inequities are reflected, not just in terms how many awards are given out but, particularly across fields, the ways that they are valued.

Moving many of the practices out of the Canada research chairs program and thinking more about how that goes across all of the tri-council funding as well would be really significant steps, because the the ways that inequities are experienced in the workplace at post-secondary institutions are not just about pay equity and the take-home salaries that are paid by the institutions; they're actually about the ways in which the work conditions get framed. That is an important way to also begin to think about some of those issues in terms of what's under federal control.

[Maxime Blanchette-Joncas, Bloc, Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC]

Thank you very much, Ms. Chen.

I'm going to turn to Ms. Boon now. I'm going to ask my question about programs under federal jurisdiction in a more specific way.

Do you think requirements are in place to really ensure pay equity among university faculty members who are of different genders or belong to equity-seeking groups? When the federal government funds Canada research chairs through the three granting councils or funds other organizations via the federal contractors program, would you say there are mechanisms in place to ensure this equity?

[Prof. Heather Boon]

As Susan mentioned, certainly with the contractors program, we do reporting. It's the same with some of the chairs' programs.

I'm trying to think creatively about other things that are under the federal government's control, and one of those would be the salaries of graduate students, post-doctoral fellows and young researchers. Part of the challenge is that we don't have as many women and diverse individuals in the pipeline as we would like to hire, and I do think that's under the federal government's control.

If we can encourage women and others to engage early and remain engaged in scientific and research pursuits, we can work together to build that pipeline of scholars across a wide range of fields.

That's something else I think the federal government could seriously make an impact on.

[Maxime Blanchette-Joncas, Bloc, Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC]

Thank you, Ms. Boon.

Ms. Prentice, do you have anything to add about the requirements in place? What can the federal government do better to improve gender pay equity among faculty members, as well as equity around access, of course?

[Dr. Susan Prentice]

Thank you for your question.

To make sure my comments are understood, I prefer to answer in English.

The actual allocation of awards is one of the most important things the federal government can do, and I feel very proud to have been part of a very long fight to ensure that there is not a leaky pipeline in the awarding of Canada research chair positions, for example, so that women and men get their fair share, so that racialized and Indigenous people and colleagues with disabilities get their fair share.

The disability data is less available. Tina perhaps will be able to speak to that.

It's true that, directly speaking, once a chair is appointed, it's up to the individual institution to set the salary, but it certainly falls within the ability of the federal government to influence the awarding of the awards, and in fact I think it is a completely appropriate policy that universities that fail to meet equity and diversity targets will find their future chairs withheld until they can meet the objectives. I think that is an appropriate mechanism for the federal government, despite the controversy it has raised in Quebec.

The larger question, of course, is that we're trying to find a light hand that recognizes both institutional autonomy and a federal interest in equity. This is where some of these intermediate mechanisms of data and reporting go a long way to helping both parties build more fairness.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Corey Tochor]

Thank you so much for that.

Now we will move on to the last six-minute round.

MP Johns, the floor is yours.

[Gord Johns, NDP, Courtenay—Alberni, BC]

Thank you all for your really important testimony.

Dr. Boon, maybe you can help me with this.

One-time pay adjustments are sometimes given to faculty to address inequity at several higher learning institutions or universities; however, it's also seen as a band-aid rather than as a real solution.

How can institutions meaningfully address pay inequities they identify among their faculty?

[Prof. Heather Boon]

Thanks for that question.

You're absolutely right. If we don't get to the bottom of the issue of why the pay inequity is there in the first place, then we haven't corrected the problems.

That's why I said that fixing the problem has to be part of a broader strategy that includes thinking very deeply about unconscious bias throughout the system. We look at, for example, starting salaries to ensure that with new hires we're not recreating a problem. We need to look at other points—for example, merit assessment, promotion, tenure, all of those things, and Susan mentioned some of this as well—to identify whether in any of those academic review processes we also have bias.

We need to think about what we mean by excellence and merit in academic settings, and be conscious that there are many different ways one can demonstrate excellence.

That's something that this concept of unconscious bias.... We need to start a dialogue and maintain a dialogue that is based on the evidence—and there is a lot of evidence in the literature about what some of these biases are—and bring them to the forefront and catalyze regular conversations across the faculty and for all those involved in making these decisions along one's career path. That's the way, ultimately, to ensure we're not recreating a problem over time.

Then obviously it's assessing regularly, which I think Susan mentioned as well. You have to keep redoing this analysis to check.

[Gord Johns, NDP, Courtenay—Alberni, BC]

Okay.

I want to go beyond that and expand on the lack of data.

Dr. Prentice, maybe you can help. You talked about StatsCan having an important role in that capacity. Maybe you can talk about what role an institution should also play.