Science and Research Committee on Feb. 17th, 2022

[Dr. Shannon Quinn, Secretary General, National Research Council of Canada]

Part of the value of having a National Research Council, an instrument of government that is based in science, is that while we undertake strategic prioritization and day-to-day research that is responsive to the broad needs of Canada, part of the value of maintaining that base of expertise and a base of foundational scientific capability is that you can have it pivot in an instant to be responsive to emerging crises like pandemics, but not exclusively pandemics. The next emerging crisis may or may not be a pandemic, but I can tell you that the NRC, like it did with the current pandemic, will take its foundational scientific capabilities—both expertise and facilities—and bring them to bear.

In answer to your question, there is no doubt that some of the priorities of the NRC shifted. The activities shifted. As a concrete example, in our metrology labs, we used the capabilities that we have there for a totally different purpose during the pandemic. We produced reagents that were needed in order to undertake the scale of PCR testing that was needed in this country when the supply chains were not able to deliver that reagent.

That is exactly part of the value of maintaining this kind of scientific capability, because, at its core, science is science, so where you have that expertise that one day may be looking at maintaining our base of metrology for the nation, the next day you can use it to produce reagents.

I would say that some of the day-to-day activities shifted, but our raison d'être actually came to the fore. It did not change, I don't think, where we're going in the long term, which is to equally continue our focus on some of the broad existential questions of our day—climate change and the long-term health of Canadians—while still trying to maintain what has always been a core of foundational expertise and facilities that can be brought to bear, whatever the government's need of the day might be.

[Stéphane Lauzon, Liberal, Argenteuil—La Petite-Nation, QC]

Thank you for that thorough response.

I hope that I have a bit of time left.

Mr. Vats, in responding to one of the questions, you spoke about artificial intelligence security. Many countries, Canada included, have recently announced significant investments in emerging technologies like artificial intelligence, quantum mechanics and genomics.

What do we do to ensure that we remain competitive in these emerging fields in Canada?

[Dr. Nipun Vats]

The government has been trying to build off the strengths, as we say, in some of these areas where we are global leaders, through some of these strategies that I mentioned earlier in my remarks.

If you look at quantum, you see that the investments we made through large-scale research funding programs have created these really strong centres of expertise within Canada. They're actually complementary and are positioned across the country. The next stage of investment here is to try to really help to amplify their efforts as research centres, but also to connect them to talent, to our emerging private sector and the players in the quantum sector, and also to work with the NRC in terms of better collaboration with government—

[The Chair, Liberal, Kirsty Duncan]

Dr. Vats, I'm sorry that we're having to move on.

Thank you, Monsieur Lauzon, and thank you, Dr. Vats.

We will now go for two and a half minutes to Monsieur Blanchette-Joncas.

[Maxime Blanchette-Joncas, Bloc, Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC]

Thank you very much, Madam Chair.

I will now also turn to Mr. Vats.

In the minister's mandate letter, the federal government mentioned the creation of a research fund on high‑impact illnesses, with a view to developing vaccines.

It is now nearly two years since we were thrown into this pandemic, and we have lived through some hard times. How does Canada explain the fact that it is the only G7 country that has not been able to produce its own vaccine?

[Dr. Nipun Vats]

There has been a fairly big effort over the last couple of years to look at how we can build on our strengths on the research side when it comes to vaccines, where we have very strong capabilities to make sure that we can produce vaccines at scale.

If you look at what the government did in the last budget to invest in a biomanufacturing and life sciences strategy for Canada, it tries to amplify what we've been able to do on the research side, which has been critical to the development of things like mRNA vaccines, but coupled with more strength with respect to our capabilities on the downstream side in terms of having the production facilities at scale, having the talent pipeline you need to make sure that you can actually support these facilities. You've seen a number of efforts to build on what's here, to make sure we can be better prepared for future pandemics.

The reality is that in the middle of an emergency you are looking for supply to make sure that your public is safe, so the focus there was to procure vaccines as quickly as possible from wherever they were produced. However, over the long run, I think there's a real effort being made to try to make sure we actually have the capacity at all steps of the supply chain that we need, to make sure we can produce vaccines at scale here in Canada.

[The Chair, Liberal, Kirsty Duncan]

Monsieur Blanchette-Joncas, that's the time, unless you have a very quick, 10-second question.

[Maxime Blanchette-Joncas, Bloc, Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC]

Madam Chair, I will ask a brief question, and Mr. Vats can send us a response in writing.

The action plans on equity, diversity and inclusion of the three federal granting agencies include measures. What indicators were used to measure the plan's progress?

[The Chair, Liberal, Kirsty Duncan]

Monsieur Blanchette-Joncas, that is your time. I apologize.

With that, I'll have to go to Mr. Cannings for two and a half minutes.

[Richard Cannings, NDP, South Okanagan—West Kootenay, BC]

Thank you. I'll stay with Dr. Vats, just to maybe get some other angles.

This might be touching on questions you've already answered, but from a little higher elevation, perhaps.

You mentioned in your opening remarks that your group works with the granting councils to...I forget the exact words, but it was something about to make sure they're working towards the government objectives.

I wonder how that works and especially when a lot of the granting council work, certainly in NSERC, is really that pure, fundamental research that's so important. You mentioned the mRNA vaccines. A lot of the work that was so critical for that came from funding from the federal government that was really at a blue-sky level. I don't know how you can set a government objective on fundamental research other than that it's well thought out and good science.

I want to come back that. What are the government objectives, and how do you direct tri-council to work towards them?

[Dr. Nipun Vats]

It's a good question. When I say we help to advance policy objectives and to make sure the granting councils' programs are aligned with government policy objectives, the first thing to say is that when it comes to decisions around granting awards, the government plays no role in that. That's done through a peer-reviewed process to ensure that the best research gets funded, and there's an arm's-length relationship with respect to funding decisions.

The second thing is that part of what the government looks to do with respect to funding to the granting councils is just what you'd mentioned, which is to make sure there is an appropriate level of funding for that investigator-led, curiosity-based research, which is the foundation of the science ecosystem.

Beyond that, there are a number of other objectives that the government may seek to advance through the programs, such as equity, diversity and inclusion objectives, but also there are some programs that are more focused with respect to their objectives, such as large-scale programs like the Canada first research excellence fund. That fund tries to support large-scale investment in world-class research at institutions around a set of priority areas.

Again, in all these areas—

[The Chair, Liberal, Kirsty Duncan]

Dr. Vats, I'm sorry to do this. It's such a good discussion. You have such interested members.

Colleagues, with your agreement, I would like to give all our members a chance to speak. If we could go to Mr. Tochor for two and a half minutes, and then to Ms. Bradford for two and a half minutes, would that be agreeable?

[Some hon. members]

Agreed.

[The Chair, Liberal, Kirsty Duncan]

Terrific.

We'll go to Mr. Tochor, for two and a half minutes, please.

[Corey Tochor, Conservative, Saskatoon—University, SK]

I would like to go back to Dr. Vats on the vaccine production. We talk about having capacity in the country, and that's important, but as far as we know, of the two main vaccines, have they been produced in a government- or state-run facility anywhere in the world, or is it all in private facilities?

[Dr. Nipun Vats]

I have to admit I'm not an expert on vaccine production, but to my understanding, private firms have produced those vaccines. There may be some countries where the AstraZeneca vaccine may have had some government involvement in the production, but with respect to the two mRNA vaccines, I believe they're private sector vaccines.

[Corey Tochor, Conservative, Saskatoon—University, SK]

Would any production in-house, with government, not have helped during this pandemic?

[Dr. Nipun Vats]

To be honest, I don't know if I can say that definitively. There may be special arrangements with respect to vaccine production, where, if you have facilities that can produce at scale that are government facilities, there may be opportunities to do so. I have to admit I'm not very well positioned to speak to that area.

[Corey Tochor, Conservative, Saskatoon—University, SK]

On increasing the manufacturing capacity in vaccines within Canada, would it be more focused? I know this isn't your realm of expertise, but if the marketplace were attractive for pharmaceutical companies to invest in facilities, it would ultimately and hopefully produce the vaccines we need in the future.

[Dr. Nipun Vats]

That would definitely be a very important part of the plan to do so. You need to have companies that can produce at scale, and not only for the Canadian market. The Canadian market is relatively small, and that's part of the challenge. If you're trying to produce at an economical scale, you'd be producing for Canada but also for other countries. You need companies that can produce at that scale.

[Corey Tochor, Conservative, Saskatoon—University, SK]

Just quickly on the capacity that we have. What do we have that has been announced? I'm thinking of the facility in Montreal that could be producing the newly approved vaccine, but we already have contracts out for that to be provided to Canada. Is that correct?

[Dr. Nipun Vats]

I would turn to my colleagues at the NRC on this.

[Dr. Shannon Quinn]

Specifically to your question about capacity, the new biologics manufacturing centre in Montreal has two lines. It can be producing two different vaccines or biologics at the same time. The capacity to produce depends very much on the specific vaccine that you're producing, but approximately two million doses a month is what we can talk about, in general.

[The Chair, Liberal, Kirsty Duncan]

Thank you so much, Dr. Quinn

I'm afraid your time is up, Mr. Tochor.

We have a really interested committee here.

We'll now go to Ms. Bradford, for two and a half minutes.

[Valerie Bradford, Liberal, Kitchener South—Hespeler, ON]

Thank you so much. You've taken us on a wonderful scientific journey tonight. I really appreciate it, and we so appreciate the research capability that we have here in Canada.

Actually, MP Tochor gave a good lead-in to my question. It's going to be for Dr. Quinn. I want to ask you about that new biologics manufacturing centre in Montreal. It was built very quickly, and I know these facilities are so specialized that they take a while to bring online.

Was it already partly constructed? How long did it take from start to finish to bring this on board?