Science and Research Committee on Oct. 25th, 2023

[Dr. Alejandro Adem]

It's an educational process on both sides. There are things to understand and learn from both sides. We want to put in place a kind of safe harbour to conduct research in Canada. This is something new for the ecosystem. It exists elsewhere, for example in the United States. I myself received a grant from the National Security Agency. This process is known, but we want to educate the research communities. It's not perfect, but I think we're in a fortunate environment in Canada. We're trying to do what's best for our country.

[Maxime Blanchette-Joncas, Bloc, Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Lloyd Longfield]

Thank you very much.

We'll now go to Mr. Cannings for six minutes to wind us up on this set.

[Richard Cannings, NDP, South Okanagan—West Kootenay, BC]

Thank you, all, for being here once again before the committee. We have another new, interesting topic.

I just want to try to get some of the things clear here about the risk assessment, and perhaps any of you can answer. It's my understanding that the people who have to fill out this risk assessment form are people who are applying for a grant and have a collaboration.... Is it just collaborations with the private sector?

[Dr. Alejandro Adem]

At this point, yes, it is.

[Richard Cannings, NDP, South Okanagan—West Kootenay, BC]

So, if I'm applying for a grant in collaboration with another foreign institution, is that something that would trigger this assessment?

[Dr. Alejandro Adem]

Right now, it's only the alliance program, and these are collaborations between academics and industry. Those are the ones right now, but we expect an expansion of that soon, of course.

[Richard Cannings, NDP, South Okanagan—West Kootenay, BC]

Would the expansion expand into other, non-private sector institutions?

[Dr. Alejandro Adem]

What has been mentioned is the dual-use technologies and the malevolent entities that they're going to want to work with.

[Richard Cannings, NDP, South Okanagan—West Kootenay, BC]

So, it's more expanded into different topics of research, such as if you were doing any research on certain sensitive topics.

[Dr. Alejandro Adem]

We understand that if they're doing research on these topics and collaborating with those entities, that would be a no go.

[Richard Cannings, NDP, South Okanagan—West Kootenay, BC]

Okay.

Not all researchers in universities access funds through the tri-council. I assume there are many who access other funds. Do you have any idea what percentage of researchers get grants from NSERC, SSHRC or CIHR versus getting grants or funding from other institutions or entities?

[Dr. Alejandro Adem]

There's an intersection. I would think it's maybe 70% or 80% of researchers, at least in the natural sciences and engineering. In the humanities, at SSHRC, it's probably quite high, but a bit lower. At CIHR, I know it's bit lower, too.

However, for what we're doing, there are other sources of funding, like Mitacs and other entities.

[Richard Cannings, NDP, South Okanagan—West Kootenay, BC]

I'm trying to get an idea of the research funding ecosystem and what portion of it we're talking about here today.

There are researchers who either aren't successful when they apply for grants through the tri-council, or they don't bother. They get funding directly from the private sector.

[Dr. Alejandro Adem]

Of course, we can only do what our agencies do, but what is true is that the tri-council sets the tone and the standards. On things like plagiarism, open access, etc., we set the tone for the whole community. It's very important that we have clarity in what we do. I think it has an impact beyond what we directly fund.

[Richard Cannings, NDP, South Okanagan—West Kootenay, BC]

For instance, on the money that is being directed at universities to increase their security, I assume that part of that would be going to looking at things beyond the tri-council researchers.

[Dr. Alejandro Adem]

Absolutely. Yes.

[Richard Cannings, NDP, South Okanagan—West Kootenay, BC]

Okay.

You talked about the researchers who had to mitigate the risks somehow. I guess that was the 4%. They had to show how they were going to—

[Dr. Alejandro Adem]

That was the 4% who were referred to the security agencies.

[Richard Cannings, NDP, South Okanagan—West Kootenay, BC]

However, 96%—

[Dr. Alejandro Adem]

Everyone has to give a plan for mitigating the risk, and then we have to see whether it's acceptably mitigated.

[Richard Cannings, NDP, South Okanagan—West Kootenay, BC]

Okay.

What was the percentage that was not at risk at all?

[Dr. Alejandro Adem]

There were 96% that were fine, but they showed how they would mitigate the risk—around 2,000 proposals.

[Richard Cannings, NDP, South Okanagan—West Kootenay, BC]

The 4% were the ones that didn't show—

[Dr. Alejandro Adem]

That's right. They were referred to the experts.