Science and Research Committee on Nov. 20th, 2023

[Richard Cannings, NDP, South Okanagan—West Kootenay, BC]

If a security agency finds that there's a risk, how do they find out about that? Is it through—

[Dr. Nipun Vats]

You might have to ask them, but I'm not sure they'll be able to tell you.

[Richard Cannings, NDP, South Okanagan—West Kootenay, BC]

Yes, I know.

[Dr. Nipun Vats]

There can be cases where, with this centre in place and with an improved security posture on campuses, someone may come to them and say, “Is this kind of transaction or behaviour something we should be concerned about or not?”

They could provide some advice on that, but you have to be a little careful. One of the advantages of having that kind of relationship is that you're not sending the wrong kind of signals to researchers, right? I think that having a focal point within an institution that can manage those risks actually means that you're not getting concerns from individual researchers about security agencies that could scattershot around. I think it is about a relationship.

[Richard Cannings, NDP, South Okanagan—West Kootenay, BC]

I think this is important, because we're talking about national security here, which is a federal thing. We're talking about universities, which have a provincial jurisdiction. We have federal funding. There are all of these intersections, but I have the feeling that there's an awful lot of opportunity for researchers to go beyond NSERC or the other tri-councils to get that funding. That's where I think the real risk lies: where they're lured to take funding from agencies abroad that may or may not have the best interest of Canada in mind.

[Francis Bilodeau]

I take your point, and I think part of that has informed the approach to date. Part of that has had to, from our perspective, be about building the tools and capacity across multiple actors. That's why, for example, there was the new research support fund put in place to build up capacity.

Nipun mentioned that multiple universities are now creating positions within their organizations around research security. That's why we focus on providing guidance, building tools that can then be used by multiple actors and also building a common understanding of the threats, and building at the same time capacity within the Government of Canada through the research security centre.

I think your point that there are multiple potential vectors and we need to enable and support multiple actors in the ecosystem to be able to take a proactive position is the right one.

[Richard Cannings, NDP, South Okanagan—West Kootenay, BC]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Lloyd Longfield]

If I might just extend that a bit, I've met with a couple of universities myself in my role, as well as some of the U15 German universities. They've hired security people from the national security agencies in both cases.

They were saying that they're looking at “threat basis” versus “country basis”. I think that's an important distinction for the report we're writing, which is focused on China.

Are there any very brief comments? I'm taking a bit of committee time here.

[Francis Bilodeau]

Our approach has also been around threat basis. That threat basis has a number of factors. They include areas of research and the nature of the actors. We recognize, as well, that threat levels and the nature of threats will evolve, and so will those vectors. Part of the approach has included one around education and one around building in dialogue, building in the groups that are able to exchange and building in capacity across multiple.... Not to box ourselves into individual organizations and individual countries.... It's recognizing those threats evolve and that to be able to respond, we need an ecosystem that is more capable and educated.

[The Chair, Liberal, Lloyd Longfield]

Great. Thank you very much.

Thanks to the committee for indulging my prerogative there.

Mr. Perkins, it's over to you for five minutes.

[Rick Perkins, Conservative, South Shore—St. Margarets, NS]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Along the lines of what the chair asked, the preference seems to be continuing with some sort of flexible guideline. Is that right?

[Francis Bilodeau]

The upcoming guidelines will include a list of institutions and a list of sensitive technologies. They're much more precise, but with the capacity to evolve over time.

[Rick Perkins, Conservative, South Shore—St. Margarets, NS]

However, they're still guidelines. They're not law. My skepticism, of course, is....

I'll give you a couple of examples through the Investment Canada Act and a few other instances.

The minister of industry in 2017 didn't perform a detailed national security review of the takeover of Norsat by Hytera. That company, Hytera, went on, in January 2022, to be banned by President Biden and charged with 21 counts of espionage. Yet, we still had nothing in the industry department about this company, to the point where the RCMP, nine months later, bought sensitive communications equipment from Hytera while they were banned and charged with espionage in the United States. Then, in November 2022, the current Liberal minister ordered three Chinese companies to divest their ownership of three critical minerals companies. However, only three months later, in January, Minister Champagne failed to follow his own guidelines when he fast-tracked the takeover of a Canadian lithium company, Neo Lithium Corp., by a Chinese state-owned mining enterprise. That's where he's got the law.

Does the minister have the power and law now in existing legislation to ban companies from doing business in Canada, as they do in the United States?

[Francis Bilodeau]

The ICA is a basis of law that would create a power for the minister to prevent investments and acquisitions. This is not the space we're talking about right now.

Obviously, the space of research is one that is multi-jurisdictional. The approach we have—or that is being presented—is one around guidelines anchored to the major lever the federal...has, which is funding for research.

[Rick Perkins, Conservative, South Shore—St. Margarets, NS]

Therefore, these are guidelines with no legal teeth.

The minister said, when he made the announcements on research funding, that he didn't control what provinces or universities did, beyond the granting councils.

Has the minister convened a meeting with his provincial counterparts to share with them that they need to stop doing this?

[Dr. Nipun Vats]

There has been communication with his counterparts about the policy. He has sent out communication to them. We've also had meetings at the officials level to discuss how we can ensure alignment of policies across the federal and provincial governments.

[Rick Perkins, Conservative, South Shore—St. Margarets, NS]

However, he has not told them to stop doing research with Huawei or the Chinese military's research arm.... He has not told the provinces directly to stop doing that, or asked them to tell the universities—which they fund and primarily control—to implement that.

[Francis Bilodeau]

In February, the ministers of ISED, Public Safety and Health Canada issued a policy statement, which asked the granting councils—our lever—to not fund anything with a researcher who could be affiliated with areas of concern, state-owned enterprises or potentially influenced by military or other state actors, in sensitive research.

The minister has provided guidance in that space.

[Rick Perkins, Conservative, South Shore—St. Margarets, NS]

I understand he's done that with the granting councils, but has he brought his provincial counterparts together—those responsible for transfers of money to universities—and asked them to respect those national guidelines and not do business with these entities?

[Dr. Nipun Vats]

He's called upon them to respond in kind, yes.

[Rick Perkins, Conservative, South Shore—St. Margarets, NS]

What does “respond in kind” mean?

[Dr. Nipun Vats]

He's pointed to the federal policy and said that provinces should move forward with similar actions.

[Rick Perkins, Conservative, South Shore—St. Margarets, NS]

Are they?

[Dr. Nipun Vats]

It varies by jurisdiction.

[Rick Perkins, Conservative, South Shore—St. Margarets, NS]

Can you provide a report to this committee of what jurisdictions are following them and what jurisdictions aren't?