Evidence of meeting #65 for Science and Research in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was list.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Nipun Vats  Assistant Deputy Minister, Science and Research Sector, Department of Industry
Francis Bilodeau  Associate Deputy Minister, Department of Industry

3:55 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Lloyd Longfield

Welcome to meeting number 65 of the Standing Committee on Science and Research. Today's meeting is taking place in a hybrid format, pursuant to the Standing Orders. Members are attending in person in the room and remotely by using Zoom.

I will make a couple of quick statements. I will recognize you by name when you're speaking. If you're participating by video conference, just make sure your microphone is activated. If you're not speaking in the room or on Zoom, keep your microphone away from the earpiece, and keep it on mute. We are trying to make sure that we run a safe meeting, and that means making sure that our interpreters don't get feedback, so keeping your earpiece away from the microphone will help us to do that. Again, all questions should come through the chair.

Pursuant to Standing Order 108(3)(i) and the motion adopted by the committee on Tuesday, June 6, 2023, the committee is resuming its study of the use of federal government research and development grants, funds and contributions by Canadian universities and research institutions in partnerships with entities connected to the People's Republic of China.

It's my pleasure to welcome to our meeting the Honourable François-Philippe Champagne, Minister of Innovation, Science and Industry.

We've been looking forward to seeing you, and the day has come. It's great to have you here.

3:55 p.m.

Conservative

Corey Tochor Conservative Saskatoon—University, SK

I have a point of order.

3:55 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Lloyd Longfield

I'll come to that once I've done the introductions.

From the Department of Industry, we have Francis Bilodeau, associate deputy minister; and Nipun Vats, assistant deputy minister, science and research sector.

We'll go to a point of order, and then, Minister, you'll have five minutes for opening comments.

3:55 p.m.

Conservative

Corey Tochor Conservative Saskatoon—University, SK

Chair, I'm very grateful that the minister is here today. We've asked for an hour. I just want to confirm that he will be here from 3:54 to 4:54.

3:55 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Lloyd Longfield

That's correct. We have the minister for an hour, and I see no problem from his side.

We do have a hard stop at six, and we have the second hour with the officials with no opening comments, so we should have plenty of time for questions.

Thank you, Mr. Tochor.

With that, we'll go to the five-minute opening remarks.

Minister, the floor is yours.

November 20th, 2023 / 3:55 p.m.

Saint-Maurice—Champlain Québec

Liberal

François-Philippe Champagne LiberalMinister of Innovation

Thank you, Mr. Chair, and I'm very happy to be here. Actually, I was one of the first members to show up for the committee, so you can see my level of enthusiasm to comment and speak with colleagues on a very, very important topic, and I'm happy, Chair, to add time. I think my remarks are five minutes or thereabouts, but if they're longer, I'd be happy to accommodate Mr. Tochor and stay for even one or two more minutes, depending on the speed I can go through that.

Let me just say good afternoon, everyone.

Thank you for welcoming me to your committee, which I believe is one of the most important for our Parliament.

It's a pleasure to appear in front of this committee again, this time to give you, colleagues, an update on our latest research security policies.

Collaborations with researchers across Canada and around the world are essential to ensuring that Canada's world-class science and research remain at the cutting edge of research and innovation.

To preserve the collaborative and open approach to science and discovery, our government continues to protect Canadian research and intellectual property from theft, espionage and, of course, foreign interference.

Colleagues will recall that in July 2021, the government launched the “National Security Guidelines for Research Partnerships”, which were developed with universities and associations that represent academic institutions across our nation.

Under the guidelines, applicants to certain granting agencies programs, such as the alliance program, which is managed by NSERC, must identify possible risk associated with the nature of their proposed research and private sector partner.

To be clear, where the proposed project or partnership presents unmitigable risks, the applicant will be denied funding.

Between July 2021 and March 2023, a total of 1,743 applications for funding were submitted under the guidelines. Of these applications, 36 were rejected due to national security risks and 110 were rejected for administrative reasons related to the guidelines. This means that approximately 92% of all applications submitted under the guidelines received funding with risk mitigation measures in place.

We want to make sure we continue to facilitate science and research. Therefore, our approach has to be proportional to the level of risk analyzed.

The diversity of Canada's research ecosystem is our greatest strength. It allows for new perspectives, increased creativity and innovation. By adopting a country-agnostic approach paired with a case-by-case risk assessment process, the government is mitigating the possibility of racial profiling within the research community while at the same time bolstering Canada's research security policies to account for the threats that originate from anywhere in the world.

Our government's commitment to research security has been further affirmed. Colleagues will recall that in budget 2022, we allocated $160 million to fully implement the guidelines by establishing a research security centre of expertise housed at the Department of Public Safety and providing direct funding to eligible post-secondary institutions to enhance their capacity to identify and mitigate risks.

I'm sure that colleagues would have heard at this committee that this was a demand by the community saying it's good to have guidelines, but you need to put resources where you want us to adhere to these guidelines and respect these guidelines. I think this is a concrete example of us following up on that.

To build on this momentum, colleagues will recall that on February 14, 2023, along with the Minister of Public Safety and Minister of Health, I directed Canada's research granting agencies and the Canada Foundation for Innovation to take an enhanced security posture. With my colleagues from Public Safety and Health, we have been working diligently to develop a robust implementation of the expanded research security measures, which were published earlier this year.

We have conducted a series of consultations, through the university working group to determine the best possible approach to protecting Canadian research and innovation, while maintaining an open and collaborative ecosystem for the benefit of all Canadian researchers.

In short, grant applications in sensitive research areas will not be funded if any researcher supported by the grant is either affiliated with or in receipt of funding or in-kind support from a research institution connected to military, national defence or foreign state security organizations posing a risk to Canada's national security.

The detailed parameters of the policy will be published soon to ensure that researchers have the guidance they need to prepare grant applications in a way that ensures the security of research on sensitive technologies.

3:55 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Lloyd Longfield

That was five minutes.

3:55 p.m.

Liberal

François-Philippe Champagne Liberal Saint-Maurice—Champlain, QC

Okay.

I had a lot of interesting things to add to that, Mr. Chair, but since you're the boss, I will stop there and happily take questions from colleagues.

4 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Lloyd Longfield

Thank you. We've had five minutes of your testimony and maybe we can work in the rest through the question rounds.

We'll be starting the first round with Michael Cooper, who's substituting for Gerald Soroka.

Also, we have Rick Perkins substituting for Michelle Rempel Garner.

Mr. Cooper, you have six minutes.

4 p.m.

Conservative

Michael Cooper Conservative St. Albert—Edmonton, AB

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, Mr. Minister.

For years, CSIS has publicly warned that Beijing is threatening Canada's national security and intellectual property in five sensitive areas of research and development. Despite these warnings, your government, including through granting councils that fall under your purview as minister, funded research partnerships with Beijing in the five sensitive areas identified by CSIS, as well as with scientists connected to Beijing's military and intelligence apparatuses.

Canadians deserve to know how many such projects have been funded by your government.

4 p.m.

Liberal

François-Philippe Champagne Liberal Saint-Maurice—Champlain, QC

Mr. Cooper, first of all, it's nice to see you again. You seem to be following me from committee to committee. It's a pleasure to see you.

For Canadians who are watching, I would say it's a bit rich to look at our government for that. You will recall that we were the first government, starting in 2018, to really look at research security. Our work started in 2018 to make sure—

4 p.m.

Conservative

Michael Cooper Conservative St. Albert—Edmonton, AB

Minister, I asked you very specifically how many projects have been funded—just a number, please.

4 p.m.

Liberal

François-Philippe Champagne Liberal Saint-Maurice—Champlain, QC

I will tell you how many projects have not been funded. You can see—

4 p.m.

Conservative

Michael Cooper Conservative St. Albert—Edmonton, AB

That wasn't the question. The question was how many projects were funded.

4 p.m.

Liberal

François-Philippe Champagne Liberal Saint-Maurice—Champlain, QC

I'm providing an answer for you.

I can tell you that since we implemented the enhanced security protocol, the guidelines that were put in place have been making sure we protect the national security of Canadian institutions, and I will say—

4 p.m.

Conservative

Michael Cooper Conservative St. Albert—Edmonton, AB

Minister, since you won't answer my question—

4 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Lloyd Longfield

On a point of order, Mr. Turnbull.

4 p.m.

Liberal

Ryan Turnbull Liberal Whitby, ON

I totally respect Mr. Cooper's time, but cutting the witness off when he's trying to answer his question is not abiding by the normal informal ways in which we operate in this committee.

I would ask, Chair, whether you wouldn't mind maybe reminding Mr. Cooper of how we operate here.

4 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Lloyd Longfield

Thanks, Mr. Turnbull.

For the minister and Mr. Cooper, if we can get the questions and answers in a timely fashion, we can continue on.

I've paused you. You have four minutes and nine seconds.

4 p.m.

Conservative

Michael Cooper Conservative St. Albert—Edmonton, AB

I'm waiting for an answer. How many projects have been funded?

4 p.m.

Liberal

François-Philippe Champagne Liberal Saint-Maurice—Champlain, QC

I would say that I'm happy to defer to the officials if you want the exact number of projects, but what I can say to you, Mr. Cooper, is that protecting Canadian research is a top priority. What I was explaining to you and to the Canadians who are watching at home today is that since 2018, we have taken a number of measures—

4 p.m.

Conservative

Michael Cooper Conservative St. Albert—Edmonton, AB

Minister, it's such a top priority, yet you can't give a number.

4 p.m.

Liberal

François-Philippe Champagne Liberal Saint-Maurice—Champlain, QC

—and I would say that we are the first government—

4 p.m.

Conservative

Michael Cooper Conservative St. Albert—Edmonton, AB

You have not given me a number.

4 p.m.

Liberal

François-Philippe Champagne Liberal Saint-Maurice—Champlain, QC

—to be taking steps to make sure that we have research security in Canada.