Science and Research Committee on Nov. 29th, 2023

[Jamie Snook]

Yes, and to expand on that thought, it's not just the past: In all of our indigenous communities in Canada, there is continued and ongoing monitoring in our communities, as Bruce Maclean has mentioned already.

In a lot of cases, science does not necessarily get budgets in the north and in indigenous communities, and we're left with only our local knowledge to make decisions, so one of the points I would like to make to this committee is to not get hung up on this idea that indigenous knowledge always needs to be complementary to or braided into western sciences. In a lot of cases, it would even be inappropriate to do that. Just trust that indigenous knowledge and science can stand on its own merits and use it, because in a lot of cases, that's all we have.

It does influence policy if you use it, because it's embedded in local priorities and concerns, and you'll get a lot more buy-in from people who care about these species—more than anybody, in a lot of cases.

That was a great point, but think forward-looking when it comes to indigenous science.

[Richard Cannings, NDP, South Okanagan—West Kootenay, BC]

Yes. I didn't mean to doubt it.

[Jamie Snook]

Yes, I know.

[Richard Cannings, NDP, South Okanagan—West Kootenay, BC]

Thank you.

I think we're out of time.

[The Chair, Liberal, Lloyd Longfield]

That was a very good distinction to put on the table. I appreciate that part of the discussion.

We're going to be on a very abbreviated round with two minutes, two minutes, one minute and one minute. If we can, keep the answers and questions tight.

Mr. Soroka, it's over to you for two minutes.

[Gerald Soroka, Conservative, Yellowhead, AB]

Okay. I'll ask my one question. I'm not certain if this is for Ms. Wilson or Ms. Salomon.

In your work with coastal indigenous communities, how do you blend traditional knowledge with the marine ecology and address the environmental challenges?

That's for whoever wants to answer

[K_ii'iljuus Barbara Wilson]

I'm going to attempt to answer it.

We look at the world as a whole. We don't separate and just concentrate on one or the other. We have to look at the fact that, for instance, salmon start their lives in our forests, in the creeks that are there, and they come back eventually to the same creeks, so we can't afford to just separate them and have them in silos. We have to look at the environmental aspects of the whole.

Anne, do you want to add to that?

[Anne Salomon]

Yes. Maybe I'll just echo what you said.

Having that holistic perspective allows us to look not only at the ecosystem interactions but also at the socio-ecological actions of people as components of the whole system, which is something that traditional marine ecologists don't tend to do and that can often leave out a big part of the picture and drivers of change.

[Gerald Soroka, Conservative, Yellowhead, AB]

I'll just follow up with that, and you might have to give a written brief.

Could you provide an example of where this integration has led to impactful policy recommendations on conservation strategies?

[Anne Salomon]

I can start.

[Gerald Soroka, Conservative, Yellowhead, AB]

Okay.

[Anne Salomon]

I'm going to relate it to—

[The Chair, Liberal, Lloyd Longfield]

Actually, you won't be able to do it justice, I'm afraid, because of the timing, but if we could get it in writing...?

That was a good suggestion by Mr. Soroka. These are very rich discussions, but unfortunately we just don't have the time to get into it as far as we'd like to.

Mr. Lametti, it's over to you for two minutes, please.

[David Lametti, Liberal, LaSalle—Émard—Verdun, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, witnesses and colleagues, for being here today. It's a fascinating discussion.

The one thing about the braiding metaphor is that maybe it's not appropriate in all cases, but it does make a cord stronger. I think that's one of the richest parts of using that metaphor of braiding traditional knowledge with western science and western forms of knowledge: It makes us all stronger.

I'll repeat the same question that I had at the last session with other witnesses. I don't mind who answers.

K_ii'iljuus, obviously we'll start with you, as well as Chief Jones.

Do UNDRIP and the principles or the philosophy behind UNDRIP help to reinforce the dialogue with respect to finding the harmonies between indigenous knowledge and western knowledge?

[K_ii'iljuus Barbara Wilson]

I would say that it could, if you followed the intentions of UNDRIP and didn't just talk about it.

[Chief Nang Jingwas Russ Jones]

I'd add that UNDRIP reinforces the need to work together collaboratively. UNDRIP talks about getting free, prior and informed consent for resource developments or plans.

[David Lametti, Liberal, LaSalle—Émard—Verdun, QC]

Thank you, Chief.

I had hoped to get up to Haida Gwaii last summer. I didn't quite make it when Minister Miller was there, but hopefully I can at some point down the road.

Mr. Chair, those are all the questions I have.

[The Chair, Liberal, Lloyd Longfield]

Terrific. Sometimes it's quality versus quantity, and those were great questions and answers.

Thank you.

We'll go to Monsieur Blanchette-Joncas for one minute.

[Maxime Blanchette-Joncas, Bloc, Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Mr. Snook, in your opening remarks, you talked about being able to integrate traditional knowledge with western knowledge. At Monday's meeting on the same subject, we were told that there is a fundamental difference between the two. Western knowledge looks at elements as precisely as possible, trying to control as many variables as possible to isolate a phenomenon, whereas traditional knowledge considers this phenomenon more holistically, in as broad a context as possible.

Do you agree with that definition? Are there strengths and weaknesses in each of these approaches?

[Jamie Snook]

I agree with the braiding metaphor as well. I understand the difference between the western scientific method and traditional knowledge, but I worry sometimes that when we refer to traditional knowledge, it's backward-looking. The concepts of indigenous science, the ongoing monitoring of the environment and the local nature of that ongoing monitoring by indigenous people and communities are often not necessarily as different from science as you might think. Inuit people where I live, for example, monitor things like sea ice every day. They've been doing it for years.

I'm going to try to be brief for the chair. I'm sorry about that, sir.

[The Chair, Liberal, Lloyd Longfield]

Thank you both. Thanks for your understanding.

We'll go to Mr. Cannings for one minute. Please be as close as you can. That would be great.

[Richard Cannings, NDP, South Okanagan—West Kootenay, BC]

I'll try to be quick.

I'm going to go to Mr. Maclean.

You seem to have a lot of experience across Canada and elsewhere in the world. I wonder if you could very briefly give the committee an assessment of where we are in Canada with this whole process of using indigenous knowledge properly for policy work.

[Bruce Maclean]

Thanks.

You're here and you're doing this work, so you're catching up.

The elders I work with are quite frustrated. They have knowledge, but it doesn't have an outlet. A lot of time is spent trying to explain and justify how changes have occurred through development that has impacted them quite seriously. The things they've come to rely on and have confidence in are gone. There's been some real destruction of the way that traditional knowledge works.

I want to really quickly point out that indigenous knowledge is such an active and living part. They had cellphones in Fort Chipewyan and in the Peace-Athabasca delta in 2012. That's when they got cell coverage for the first time. Within about six weeks, people knew exactly where to go to get a signal. There's this constant refinement. There's this constant evolution that we have to remember and make space for.

I'm rambling. I'll stop there.

[The Chair, Liberal, Lloyd Longfield]

No. That was very good. Thank you.

We really appreciate all of the witnesses for being here. I can see that our time is set up on western standards versus indigenous standards. Unfortunately, that's the way our committee is forced to run. It's by the rules we set previously.

Thank you all for being with us and for sharing your knowledge with us for our study. You can, of course, as I said earlier, submit anything further in writing to us. We have one direct request for writing, but if there are other things you can submit to help our study, it would be appreciated.

For the members on Zoom, if you can stay with us, we will be suspending briefly so that we can get one witness for our next panel signed in on Zoom and checked for audio. We'll ask the others to leave or stay in the background while we get our new panel in.

We'll suspend for just a minute or two.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Lloyd Longfield]

We'll get started on our second half of the meeting. We're going to be doing our best to wind up by 6:45. We have a hard stop due to resources, but we'll see how we can do. We have one less panel this session, so we may make up a bit of time there.

Welcome back. Pursuant to Standing Order 108(3)(i) and the motion adopted by the committee on Monday, September 18, 2023, the committee resumes its study of integration of indigenous traditional knowledge and science in government policy development.

It's now my pleasure to welcome, as an individual via video conference, Dr. Hugo Asselin, full professor.

We also have, from the Canadian Mountain Network and Braiding Knowledges Canada, Dr. Monique Dubé, executive director, and Dr. Joe Dragon, chairman of the board of directors. He is accompanied by his daughter Olivia in the background, who is a second-year Queen's student and has distributed some braiding that was done by Jane Dragon, Joe's mother. We have three generations of his family with us today. Thank you for that.

We will start with five minutes for Dr. Asselin. Go ahead, please.