Evidence of meeting #69 for Science and Research in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was birds.
A recording is available from Parliament.
5:50 p.m.
Conservative
Corey Tochor Conservative Saskatoon—University, SK
Just to clarify, how would they talk? What would that sound like?
5:50 p.m.
Geographer, As an Individual
They would be whistle sounds, more bird calls than any sort of human speech. The interesting thing about this that they've discovered is that it's only used between humans and birds. Birds don't use it with each other. It has a grammar, so to speak, a directional component. The honey exists in a certain place, so they alert the human. The human follows. They find the honey. The bird needs the human to get the honey out of the tree, to break the tree open, and then the bird actually eats the honeycomb. There are a lot of documentaries on this. Over the years, as we've gotten more sophisticated in recording and then breaking down the recordings and analyzing them, we're able to understand.
Another example would be chickadees, very common birds, and tufted titmice. They have these much more advanced systems of communication, and they go across species as well.
We're hearing that in Australia birds will communicate certain things. I always go back to the example of pets. In pet bird studies on parrots or studies on birds in captivity like crows, we're able to see advanced communication systems. This is something that would definitely be taking place.
5:50 p.m.
Conservative
Corey Tochor Conservative Saskatoon—University, SK
I'm almost out of time, so I'll ask just a quick question about the birds and the bees. Do they talk back and forth?
5:50 p.m.
Some hon. members
Oh, oh!
5:50 p.m.
Liberal
5:50 p.m.
Liberal
Lena Metlege Diab Liberal Halifax West, NS
Mr. Chair, thank you.
Let me first thank the witnesses for being here.
I have a comment. I usually don't, but with this one, Dr. Bonta, you have taken me back five decades to when I was a little child, and I remember my grandparents in Lebanon and elders and people there telling me that they could talk to birds, and birds talk to them, and as a result of that, there's a whatever. Thank you for that testimony. It's not something that we hear about in this country, or certainly in the milieu that we are in, but I actually now remember that it does exist, and you have information on that. I think that's very valuable for us to hear.
Go ahead.
5:50 p.m.
Geographer, As an Individual
I just want to point out that if you talk to your pets, there's really no difference. Birds have the same cognitive abilities as mammals we know. If you're a birder, if you watch birds, you can attract them. Hunters know this. One of my issues with indigenous knowledge is that we need to realize that this is something we can also learn. I think lots of people who spend time close to nature know this. I just talk about domestic species because you get to see this up close—the activities of your house cat. This is where we're privileged to have those communications. Of course, it's a very different type of speech.
There is tons of literature out there now, so it is definitely being taken seriously, and that's the space where we can go back and re-examine those old, traditional beliefs in Lebanon.
5:50 p.m.
Liberal
Lena Metlege Diab Liberal Halifax West, NS
Thank you for that.
With my limited time, I have a quick question for you, Mr. Gonet.
I think you're almost a doctor, and you're doing things with the Yukon University. What role can indigenous-led post-secondary institutions, such as the Yukon University, play in better supporting the integration of indigenous knowledge in government policy development, from your perspective?
5:55 p.m.
Ph.D. Candidate, Conservation Biology, As an Individual
Thank you for the question.
For sure, they can make an excellent contribution. I know that Margaret Kovach, who is a leading scholar in Canada, has mentioned that for indigenous knowledge to really live, it needs to exist in several different parts, and it needs to be uplifted. As a university, it can help fund indigenous researchers. They can uplift indigenous knowledge-holders and say that these are the experts in these knowledge systems.
As an example, we were just talking about animal communications. I met with several elders who have, for sure, communicated with animals, or say they have communicated with animals, just in the examples here.
5:55 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Lloyd Longfield
Thank you very much.
We have Mr. Blanchette-Joncas for one and a half minutes.
5:55 p.m.
Bloc
Maxime Blanchette-Joncas Bloc Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC
Thank you, Mr. Chair. I'll be quick.
Dr. Parlee, you said earlier that western knowledge and Indigenous knowledge might conflict. How should or can the government develop public policy when these two types of knowledge conflict?
How can we distinguish between them? Should we give priority to one over the other? How do you go about it?
5:55 p.m.
Professor, UNESCO Chair, University of Alberta, As an Individual
I think it's important to note that there are conflicts among scientists, and taking lessons on how we deal with those conflicts is important. Knowledge is political, as well as rooted in evidence and data. It's taking note and making those socio-political values transparent in terms of where the knowledge is coming from and whose knowledge matters. I think that's one way of dealing with that.
A few of the examples where we've seen knowledge conflicts are to do with the very iconic polar bear population. There is conflict among some scientists and Inuit and Inuvialuit knowledge systems, and some of that has to do with the kinds of data that are being compared.
When we dig more deeply into the root of the knowledge, we determine that people are looking at different indicators—at different time scales or subpopulations, for example. We need to be very careful when we assume that science has a monopoly on what's right, and that we're only fitting indigenous knowledge in when it's convenient.
5:55 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Lloyd Longfield
That's great. Thank you. A minute and a half goes quickly.
We have Mr. Cannings for a minute and a half, please.
5:55 p.m.
NDP
Richard Cannings NDP South Okanagan—West Kootenay, BC
Thank you.
I'm going to turn to Dr. Bonta. Maybe I'll give you a minute to expand on your statement about the synthesis of these knowledge systems.
The way I understood it is that we shouldn't be trying to bring indigenous knowledge into western science and trying to meld it there, but we should create a new knowledge system out of the two or more.
5:55 p.m.
Geographer, As an Individual
For questions of climate change, it's a little immature now for us, in a sense, as human beings.... In my lifetime as a geographer.... Thank God, we're finally starting to see the earth as something.... People are realizing things that 20 years ago were very esoteric and having that space, not to bring in these people as voices but to basically centralize this and have these discussions, maintaining the separate knowledge and separate traditions and so forth.
This is in many countries, and I definitely think worldwide. I don't see why we wouldn't, so that's why I'm interested in the hybridization, in a sense, in certain topics, in certain goals and in certain applied settings, but definitely the case of climate change would be something that we should be.... We should even have journals that go beyond what we have, breaking all the disciplines apart. As scientists, we don't even talk to each other.
We know full well that there is no such thing as science, so if we can move beyond that, governments could definitely be in the lead in that.
6 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Lloyd Longfield
Thank you to all the witnesses for being here for this extended portion of our meeting. Thank you for your incredible patience, but mostly for the knowledge that you've shared with us, which will be very beneficial for the study we are doing. It's a very interesting and challenging study, so thank you all for agreeing to be with us today.
I think what I'll do is suspend. We can have some sidebar conversations to see what we'd like to do with the rest of the meeting, so I'll suspend for a few moments.
Thank you, again, to the witnesses. You're free to leave, finally.
6 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Lloyd Longfield
Thank you, all, for your patience in getting us through that part of the meeting.
The question of whether we go into our committee business in camera or adjourn the meeting is up to the will of the committee.
Mr. Turnbull.
6 p.m.
Liberal
Ryan Turnbull Liberal Whitby, ON
I'm fairly ambivalent, but it says “in camera” in the notice of meeting, so I would suggest that we move in camera.
6 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Lloyd Longfield
Okay, we'll go in camera, and then we'll pick up the conversation.
[Proceedings continue in camera]