Evidence of meeting #69 for Science and Research in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was birds.
A recording is available from Parliament.
4:40 p.m.
Liberal
Helena Jaczek Liberal Markham—Stouffville, ON
Dr. Bonta, you have experience in Australia. Our analysts provided us with some information about what Australia and New Zealand have done, in particular. They mentioned things like guidelines for patent protection and so on.
Since you've worked in so many different places, could you tell us something about your experience as to what other jurisdictions do, which the Canadian government could look at specifically?
4:40 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Lloyd Longfield
Can you hold that thought for half a second, Dr. Bonta?
I'm sorry for another interruption, but the lights are flashing. I'll see whether we have unanimous consent to continue with the discussion. We have 30 minutes. We could vote virtually.
It's a closure motion in the House.
December 4th, 2023 / 4:45 p.m.
Conservative
Corey Tochor Conservative Saskatoon—University, SK
Who moved that motion? Was it a Liberal government closure motion?
4:45 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Lloyd Longfield
It looks like the Conservatives are leaving. We don't have UC, so we'll have to get that answer in writing, unfortunately, Dr. Bonta. I'm sorry for the interruption.
I was hoping we could get another round of questions in. Apologies to the NDP and to the Bloc as well.
Normally our committee works a little more collaboratively than this, but unfortunately we are going to have to suspend until after the votes.
5:25 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Lloyd Longfield
We'll resume our lines of questions. I think we had about a minute and a half with Dr. Jaczek and Dr. Bonta.
I'm sorry for the interruption. Let's continue on and we can at least get this round finished.
5:25 p.m.
Liberal
Helena Jaczek Liberal Markham—Stouffville, ON
Dr. Bonta, perhaps you could respond, based on your experience in Australia, on something that could be of use to the Government of Canada.
5:25 p.m.
Geographer, As an Individual
I think the ranger groups, as they exist, are a huge success in the Northern Territory. I would highly recommend you look up the Northern Land Council and the Land and Sea groups. These are indigenous rangers who work to restore the landscape to pre-1788 conditions—before Captain Cook—through fire management and a lot of other aspects, but also through the protection of sacred sites. They are working together in a way that I've never seen anywhere else in the world among indigenous people. They have power, though, definitely beyond what we have in the U.S., even in places like Mexico. They own the land, and you go in on their invitation only.
Having said that, they feel incredibly.... The process of publishing with them takes many years, but for the oldest societies in the world, really, 40,000 to 50,000 years of unbroken knowledge.... It's just beyond anything I ever considered. It's maybe something to look at as an alternative model from somewhere else that was obviously colonized from the same source.
There's not a lot more to say there.
If you're interested in the fire-spreading, I can always pass that along. We're actively involved in trying to publish some of the deeper accounts, but we got cut off during COVID. It takes a long time to negotiate the permissions. We have them, but we just need to have them legally, basically. People are very happy to share the open knowledge—not the secret knowledge—of birds that spread fire, why they do it, how they do it and so forth.
5:25 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Lloyd Longfield
Thank you.
Now we'll go to Monsieur Blanchette-Joncas.
Mr. Blanchette‑Joncas, you have six minutes.
5:25 p.m.
Bloc
Maxime Blanchette-Joncas Bloc Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
I'd like to welcome the witnesses with us for today's study.
Mr. Bonta, based on your experience in South America, how do South American governments incorporate their Indigenous peoples' knowledge into their government policy?
5:25 p.m.
Geographer, As an Individual
I can speak to Mexico. I was thinking about this. It's a country in which the Spanish colonial point of view was to put people into pueblos. It was a very different way of doing colonization.
In the Mexican identity, the mestizo identity, there's a tension with indigenous knowledge, definitely, but if you look at what's happened in Oaxaca, again, they have absolute control of what happens in their municipios. That's another country where incorporation of indigenous knowledge directly, I think, is getting to the threshold.
What I would like to see is that we stop talking about ethno-ornithology—and I'm somebody who's been doing ethno-ornithology for a long time—and just talk about ornithology and bring people centrally into the process. Much of what we are finding out that we need to learn about birds cuts across western ornithology and ethno-ornithology. When you collaborate in Mexico, you do it only with the permission of those groups, in most cases.
I have one other comment on that. I saw a hospital and I thought, “I'd like to see a university here in the north.” In that hospital in an indigenous region, you can go in and you can choose. You can have indigenous practitioners, religion, Catholic traditions, or western, for cancer treatment or for anything, but it's all within the same hospital. The western Mexican medical personnel are trained in the indigenous methods and vice versa. There are three or four of them around Mexico. I'd never seen, really, anything like it, but in Mexico a lot of the indigenous medicine is elevated to the level where everyone seeks it out.
That's my vision. There are countries where they're breaking through, seeking it out as something that's on the level. It's not just something that's in one place and you go to find that knowledge applicable there, but it's universal.
I think, definitely, I can speak most to Mexico.
5:30 p.m.
Bloc
Maxime Blanchette-Joncas Bloc Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC
Thank you, Mr. Bonta.
You talked about beliefs and spirituality. At our previous meetings, some witnesses have mentioned that these aspects are part of Indigenous knowledge.
I'd like to understand how we can distinguish between belief and knowledge. As we know, western science has a scientific method, but how is it done for Indigenous knowledge? Is there a testing process to determine what's true and what's false?
5:30 p.m.
A voice
Hang on a minute, Mr. Chair. Something went wrong.
5:30 p.m.
Geographer, As an Individual
We can hear the interpreter now.
I couldn't hear it the first time.
5:30 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Lloyd Longfield
Could you repeat the question?
We'll start over. I've paused the time.
5:30 p.m.
Bloc
Maxime Blanchette-Joncas Bloc Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC
I will ask Dr. Parlee to respond, and then Mr. Bonta can.
5:30 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Lloyd Longfield
If you ask the question again, I won't put it on your time and then he can pick it up.
5:30 p.m.
Bloc
Maxime Blanchette-Joncas Bloc Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC
I'll repeat the question.
You talked about the spiritual beliefs that can be drawn from Indigenous knowledge. So my question is, how do we separate belief from knowledge? Is there a testing process for Indigenous knowledge?
Western science has the scientific method and process, but, in terms of Indigenous knowledge, how can we distinguish between knowledge and spirituality to ensure that we've defined knowledge and, above all, figured out the truth?
5:30 p.m.
Geographer, As an Individual
Thanks.
That is a fundamental question. Even in western knowledge, I think we like to make claims about what is true because we peer-review and because we have this whole process, but in reality much of what is published is not going to be true. Much is disputed.
In studies of indigenous knowledge, which is based on what you heard, it can be more anecdotal and it may have importance. If we're looking at going out with people into the field and comparing, groups of people are going out, identifying plants and figuring out what they're useful for, or what birds do. Different people get together and they talk about it. They discuss it, they disagree and they settle on what the answer is.
As my colleague mentioned, it's very dynamic. It's happening now. People are making new knowledge.
I think it's very contextual to what you're dealing with and it's something that outsiders should be more sympathetic to, because we do the same thing as scientists. We come together, we peer-review and we do all this.
I hope that answers your question, to a certain extent. It would be a very long answer to get into what truth is and what knowledge is.
5:30 p.m.
Bloc
Maxime Blanchette-Joncas Bloc Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC
Thank you.
Dr. Parlee, I'm going to give you an opportunity to answer the same questions. We talked about the scientific method, and you also hold a research chair.
I'd especially like you to tell us how we can really distinguish between spirituality and knowledge.
5:35 p.m.
Professor, UNESCO Chair, University of Alberta, As an Individual
Thank you.
To be brief, so that there is an opportunity to hear from others as well, I think a fundamental question is how indigenous knowledge is similar to and different from science.
There are many similarities in terms of what your question asks. For example, if my colleague Joseph Catholique, who is a caribou hunter, goes out on the land, he sees 10 caribou. The scientist who goes out on the land also sees 10 caribou. That's evidence-based knowledge. If Joseph Catholique is going out on the land year after year, and that scientist arrives only once every five years, the depth and the detail of the indigenous knowledge are profound when compared to science. There is a long time series of knowledge for indigenous people that gives that credibility.
We see conflicts between science and indigenous knowledge around basic things, like how many caribou and population dynamics. I have sometimes said that indigenous knowledge is better than science, in the sense that it has a spiritual connection as well. People understand caribou migration and population dynamics based on evidence, but also because of that spiritual connectedness.