Science and Research Committee on March 1st, 2022

[Ryan Williams, Conservative, Bay of Quinte, ON]

I have a last quick question. You're the rare example of a Canadian researcher. You left Canada for the U.S., but actually came back home. What do you think needs to be done to keep our science researchers and innovators here in Canada?

[Dr. Marc Nantel]

What got me back is when I had the impression that Canada was serious about research, that it wanted to invest in our facilities, in our experts. That's what got me back. My first grant at the college was from CFI. To me, it shows a dedication by the country. We had a ministry of science. That was a great thing, and I'd like to see it back, honestly. It sends a strong message.

[Ryan Williams, Conservative, Bay of Quinte, ON]

Thank you very much, sir.

Madam Chair, I think I'm at the end.

[The Chair, Liberal, Kirsty Duncan]

Thank you so much, Dr. Nantel. Thank you so much, Mr. Williams.

It's really interesting testimony, and we're so grateful for everybody's time.

We'll now go to Ms. Bradford for five minutes, please.

[Valerie Bradford, Liberal, Kitchener South—Hespeler, ON]

Thank you very much. It certainly is a very interesting discussion this evening.

Dr. Nantel, we know there's a worldwide shortage of semiconductors, and it's really putting a crimp on the automotive sector and pretty much every manufacturing sector that involves tech at all. I know you've introduced the photonics program at the Welland campus of Niagara College. Can you elaborate on the importance of photonics towards the development and manufacturing of semiconductors? Do you think Canada is well positioned to be able to produce these at home, so that we'll not be held hostage to waiting on the Asian market to provide these for us?

[Dr. Marc Nantel]

Well, through the chair, that's a big question. Thank you so much.

Yes, I'm a laser expert. In the early 2000s I had a chance to establish two programs in photonics, one at Algonquin College in Ottawa and one at Niagara College, which covered various aspects of lasers, optics and photonics that are important for Canada. It's not just telecommunications, even though at the time it was all we read in the news—optical fibre telecommunications—but lasers and optics applied to lighting, to cameras, to biophotonics, so medical applications. It's a lot easier to point to something with photonics in it than it is to point to something that doesn't have any. My cellphone has an AMOLED screen. That's photonics.

From the point of view of semiconductors, what I know of semiconductor production is that they employ very strong UV lights and optics to reproduce patterns we want to put on the silicon in a very small area. We do have fabrication facilities in Canada. We have one in Bromont, Quebec. There is a centre called the Communications Research Centre, which I think used to get better funding, but could use some more, somewhere around Kingston, I think it is, but it works with institutions across Canada. That is about designing circuitry and making them happen on silicon.

We do have some good research facilities in Canada. It's a question of having production facilities. When it comes to making hundreds of thousands of circuits and stamping them out and putting them into millions of cars, what you need is more than just research facilities. You need industrial facilities that will take the research of our great Canadian universities and colleges and put that into actual practice in Canada. This sometimes takes a little longer.

I'm afraid I can't go into too much more detail as semiconductor production is not my exact area of expertise, but I hope I answered part of your question.

[Valerie Bradford, Liberal, Kitchener South—Hespeler, ON]

I'm very familiar with Conestoga College, of course, because it's located in my riding. I know they do an awful lot of industrial research and in partnerships. Perhaps they're a competitor of yours.

I'm fascinated by your food and beverage work. You have the breweries. I think you started with the winery, and now have the distillery. The last time I was down there, greenhouses were looking at, perhaps, marijuana research, so you have the whole suite.

Are those in partnerships with private industry at all, or do you have your own brands?

[Dr. Marc Nantel]

Yes, and yes.

First of all, Conestoga is, rest assured through the chair, a partner of ours. They're a member of the Southern Ontario Network for Advanced Manufacturing Innovations, so they receive funding through us from FedDev and they are doing great things.

Every project we do is in concert with a company. There isn't one that we do just for the curiosity of the staff or faculty; in everything we do, there's a company involved. That's because, eventually, we want that company to take the results of the research and commercialize them.

In the case of our products, our wine, our beer and our distillates, those are made by students in their courses, and it's our own brand. That's part of the academic side of the house; it's not so much the research side. We do research in beverages, and I mentioned the distillate example with the “zero gin”. We do a whole bunch of other research on beer and wine, but these products that we sell are part of our academic delivery. Having stores on campus is partly to give students the real-world experience of having to take their product from the vine all the way to the cash register. It's also a way of making sure that we improve our brand in the region and we recoup a bit of the cost of these fairly expensive programs.

[Valerie Bradford, Liberal, Kitchener South—Hespeler, ON]

That's very unique.

Thank you, I know my time's up.

[The Chair, Liberal, Kirsty Duncan]

Thank you, Ms. Bradford, and thank you to all our witnesses.

We can get in two more. We'll hear from Monsieur Blanchette-Joncas for two and a half minutes, and then from Mr. Cannings for two and a half minutes.

[Maxime Blanchette-Joncas, Bloc, Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Mr. El Zaïm, I will address you again. I would like to go into more detail on the subject raised earlier about studies and scientific publication in French.

You mentioned that Canada was known for its pluralism and that it was possible to study and publish in French. I want to understand the reasoning behind this statement, because I spoke with representatives of the Canadian Association of University Teachers who said that the data on this subject were quite striking. I'll take the liberty of presenting it.

The latest data from the Canada Research Chairs on French-language publishing indicate that publications by Quebec researchers represent only 0.5% of scientific publications in international journals. These statistics date back to 2014, and this figure may have decreased. However, research done in French represented nearly 10% of research in natural and medical sciences. Since 1980, there has been a drop of nearly 15%.

I want to know if the government makes it possible to be fair and include French in scientific and research studies and publications.

[Dr. Adel El Zaïm]

Thank you.

The problem of publishing in French has unfortunately always existed. Obviously, it is difficult to do less than zero. It is possible in terms of temperature, but not in the field of publishing.

Of course, the situation is difficult. We can't say that everything is published in French, far from it. We need help, and the government can help universities and publishing houses. It can further encourage open access publishing or open science, and it can encourage or even require publication in both of Canada's official languages.

Now, when a researcher wants to publish in the United States as Mr. Nantel has done, it must be done in English. Americans don't learn French and don't study in French. I am very divided, because, on the one hand, I feel enthusiasm, love and devotion for the French language, but on the other hand, I am aware of the reality of the market. Our governments could take steps to promote French.

Our university encourages the use of French and works with international organizations to ensure that French is given more prominence. We teach in French and publish in French. Indeed, in some areas, all the work is done in French, but the results are published in English.

[The Chair, Liberal, Kirsty Duncan]

Mr. El Zaïm, I'm sorry to interrupt you, but your time is up.

We'll go to Mr. Cannings for a quick two and a half minutes, please.

Then it will be our second panel.

[Richard Cannings, NDP, South Okanagan—West Kootenay, BC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

I'm going to turn back to Dr. Nantel again.

I would love to talk about wine and cannabis, because they're both huge parts of the economy in my riding. Instead, I'm going to come back to this little issue around funding and money.

A few years ago you wrote in an editorial that “None of the great results college applied research achieves across the country could happen without the work of the research offices, and yet they are run on inadequate resources”.

I know you've touched on this several times here this evening, but could you take a couple of minutes to expand on that and what we need to do as a federal government to help colleges do this good work.

[Dr. Marc Nantel]

Thank you very much, through the chair.

The university system has this great program called the research support fund. It helps universities fund their research offices and endeavours. Generally for every dollar they get from the tri-council, they get 40 cents on top, free, without applying much of a proposal, to run their research office, commercialization office, technology transfer office and these types of things.

Colleges do not get that. We don't have it. For some grants we can take up to 20% of the grant envelope and put it towards these types of expenses, but a lot of them are just project costs, grants that pay only project costs. I've got to run projects and I have no support to run the office of those who get the projects, take the company through the process and help commercialize the thing after the project is realized. That's what I mean.

That's what I meant a few years ago in that op-ed. We run on steam here—on the change in the sofa. Colleges are funded by the province to deliver student graduates to society. The research endeavour has to be a little bit more self-sustaining. It's hard for a college administration to say, I'm going to put x amount of money in the research office so they can do their great other stuff. We need better funding like the research support fund to support our offices. Like I mentioned, we write the grants, do the industry partner thing and hire the students. All of that's done by the professors at universities, not at colleges.

[The Chair, Liberal, Kirsty Duncan]

Dr. Nantel, and Mr. Cannings, thank you.

We'd like to thank all of our witnesses. We're grateful for your time and expertise. It was a really good conversation. Thank you.

We will temporarily suspend before we go to our second panel.

It's my understanding that we will be losing Mr. Baldinelli.

We'd like to thank you for being a wonderful member, and we welcome Ms. Gladu.

We are suspended.

[The Chair, Liberal, Kirsty Duncan]

Colleagues, I'd like to welcome you all back for our second panel tonight.

I'd like to welcome all of our witnesses. We are delighted to have you this evening.

From the Government of Quebec, we have Dr. Rémi Quirion, the chief scientist; from Synchronex, we have Marie Gagné, chief executive officer; and from the University of British Columbia we have Dr. Gail Murphy, vice-president, research and innovation.

We welcome you all. We'd like to hear statements from you all. Each of you will be given five minutes. When there is 30 seconds left, I will hold a yellow card.

With that, we will go over to Dr. Quirion, for five minutes.

Welcome, Mr. Quirion.

[Dr. Rémi Quirion, Chief Scientist, Chief Scientist Office of Quebec, Government of Quebec]

Thank you very much, Madam Chair.

I am very pleased to see you again and to be here tonight.

All things related to science and research in Canada have been close to my heart for some 40 years. I worked at McGill University for about 30 years and I have been the Chief Scientist of Quebec for about 10 years. Recently, I have also become the president of the International Network for Government Science Advice, which is an international network present in more than 30 countries.

Today, my remarks will focus on four themes: basic research, talent, scientific literacy, and the Canadian science and technology ecosystem.

The pandemic has demonstrated the importance of basic research. If we are to respond to the major challenges facing our society, whether it be pandemics, climate change, floods or cyber attacks, we need basic research. Where would we be today if we did not have mRNA vaccines? Some may think these vaccines were a bit expensive, but where would our economy and society be if we didn't have them?

These vaccines were developed through investments in basic research, investments that have been made for over 30 years. Investing in basic research always pays off, even if it sometimes takes a little time.

In Canada, the peak was 2% of GDP in 2001. In other words, 2% of Canada's GDP was invested in research and innovation. In 2017, it dropped to 1.67%. Since then, the total has risen a little. Indeed, in 2020, the peak was 1.84% of GDP. This means that we are trailing far behind the big leagues.

In 2019, the average for OECD countries was 2.5%. More than a dozen countries invest more than 3% of their GDP in research. Finland, a small country, has just announced that it will invest 4% of its GDP in research and innovation. Surely, Canada can do the same. What we see is that the gap is widening between Canada and several OECD countries. Canada is becoming less competitive internationally in terms of research and innovation.

I was part of the Fundamental Science Review Panel, the Naylor committee, created by the chair of the Standing Committee on Science and Research over five years ago. In the Naylor report, we recommended significant reinvestment in basic research across the three Canadian granting councils. This has been done to some extent, but not enough. It is now estimated that the shortfall is about $1.3 billion if we are to be internationally competitive. This is a significant shortfall.

The good news is that in the last federal budget, the government committed to supporting 1,000 more chairs to attract young researchers from around the world and, of course, Canadians. They are going to need research grants. This will put even more pressure on the whole network. Currently, about two out of ten grant applications are successful. This means that eight out of ten grant applications are rejected, because our granting councils don't have enough money.

Another very important issue is the workforce. There is a labour shortage across Canada, whether it's college or university level labour. We need to find ways to convince young people from Canada and from all over the world to come here to receive training in research and innovation.

As far as training grants are concerned, they are not competitive enough. Excellence grants are around $18,000 per year for a master's degree and $25,000 per year for a doctorate. This is half of what many European countries offer. It was a very competitive field before the pandemic, and it's going to be even more competitive after the pandemic.

I have worked in the mental health field. In my opinion, brains are grey gold. That's where Canada's future competition lies. We must have the best brains to be sure to create wealth through new products and social innovation. We need to promote all scientific careers and leave no one behind.

We have made good progress in this area, but more needs to be done. The development of scientific literacy, that is to say, providing training and imparting knowledge about research and science from primary school onwards, as well as at secondary school, college and university, is probably the best way—

[The Chair, Liberal, Kirsty Duncan]

Mr. Quirion, I'm sorry to interrupt you, but your speaking time is up.

[Dr. Rémi Quirion]

That's fine.

[The Chair, Liberal, Kirsty Duncan]

Welcome. I know that people will have questions for you. Thank you so much for your presentation.

[Dr. Rémi Quirion]

There's no problem.

[The Chair, Liberal, Kirsty Duncan]

Ms. Gagné, you have the floor for five minutes.

[Marie Gagné, Chief Executive Officer, Synchronex]

Who here knows about College Centres for Technology Transfer and Innovative Social Practices, or CCTTs? Raise your hand.

Unfortunately, I don't see many hands raised. That's normal, but it's also sad, because, according to the very same SMEs who are its main clients, CCTTs are a hidden gem.

Madam Chair, members of the committee, I will introduce myself: my name is Marie Gagné, president and chief executive officer of Synchronex, which is the network of 59 CCTTs in Quebec.

Let's come back to our initial question: what is a CCTT? CCTTs are college-affiliated research and innovation centres, and their clients are SMEs and organizations. The purpose of a CCTT is to meet a client's need to use or commercialize a new product, process or procedure. SMEs don't want to do research, and I would say that CCTTs don't want to do research either. They want to solve a problem, improve a process or develop a new product to be more competitive, more inclusive and more environmentally friendly, and applied research is the tool they use to do that.

I'll give you two examples. The first is a CCTT, the Innovative Vehicle Institute, in the Laurentians, working with Lion Electric to design the first fully electric school bus, helping Lion Electric to position itself as a North American leader.

Another CCTT, the National Centre in Environmental Technology and Electrochemistry, in Mauricie, has been working with Bio‑K+ for over 26 years in the development of probiotics so that Bio‑K+ could position itself as a leader in its field. It remains so today by distributing its products in Canada, the United States, Germany and China.

Why do CCTTs exist? The first CCTT was established 40 years ago in response to Bombardier's need for access to scientific and technical resources in Quebec's Lower St. Lawrence region. To differentiate itself, Bombardier needed access to applied research specialists to assist in the development of new products and processes. The collaborative effort worked so well that since then, 58 CCTTs have been established, bringing the total number of CCTTs in Quebec to 59.

Currently, 2,000 CCTT experts work with 6,000 companies on 10,000 innovation projects every year. Yes, to try it is to buy it. We have an annual budget of $150 million, 50% of which comes from clients, 30% from the government of Quebec and 20% from the Government of Canada. Each CCTT specializes in a relevant area based on its location, but also has a mandate to cover the whole territory.

CCTTs specialize in cybersecurity, civil security, emergency response, aerospace, artificial intelligence, telecommunications, clean energy, innovative vehicles, agriculture, food self-sufficiency, metallurgy, etc. As for societal issues, they also specialize in immigrant integration, indigenous issues, disability integration, gerontology, education, etc.

Moreover, CCTTs take an active role in developing a more innovative workforce by integrating students into their projects, which created a workforce that is more aware of the latest technologies and most innovative techniques.

Applied research is just as necessary as basic research. There is a real need to maintain a balance between the two types of research, to ensure that knowledge can be turned into collective wealth. To maintain the quality of life of Canadians, we must maintain and even increase Canada's international competitiveness. We must also adapt our technologies and practices to build a Canada that is more sustainable and respectful of its diversity and history.

Colleges, including CCTTs, by virtue of their applied research offerings and proximity to their regions and sectors, have an important and strategic role to play. Ninety-five per cent of the Canadian population lives within 50 kilometres of a college. This means that college research centres are key players in helping SMEs innovate more, as well as helping communities solve societal issues.

The CCTT model has had such a significant effect on socioeconomic development that, in 2010, the Natural Sciences and Engineering Research Council of Canada, NSERC, decided to create similar centres affiliated with colleges and institutes across Canada: Technology Access Centres, or TACs.

Today, we believe that it is important to increase NSERC's core funding for applied college research.

A minimum of 225 TACs needs to be recognized, as initially planned for by NSERC, including the 59 CCTTs in Quebec. Each of them must be granted recurring annual funding of $350,000.

There needs to be an understanding that college research expertise operates in a self‑funding system—

[The Chair, Liberal, Kirsty Duncan]

Ms. Gagné, I'm very sorry to interrupt you, but you're out of time.

We're very glad to have you. We thank you for your perspective.

We will now go to Dr. Gail Murphy for five minutes.

Welcome.