Science and Research Committee on Feb. 8th, 2024

[The Chair, Liberal, Lloyd Longfield]

Welcome to meeting number 72 of the Standing Committee on Science and Research.

Today's committee meeting is taking place in a hybrid format. We have all the members in the room here in person, but we do have a few witnesses who will be remote.

For the witnesses, you can chose the official language of your choice on your screen by choosing floor, English, or French. If interpretation is lost, please let us know right away, and we will make sure that it's restored before we continue with our proceedings.

If you could wait until you're recognized by me, that helps the meeting flow well, and directing comments through the chair also helps.

When you're not speaking, please make sure that your microphone is on mute. For those in the room, make sure that your earpiece is kept away from the microphone so we don't have feedback events on our translators. We want them to be safe throughout the meeting, and we do not want to cause any hearing damage because of our earpieces being too close to the microphones.

Pursuant to Standing Order 108(3)(i) and the motion adopted by the committee on Monday, September 18, 2023, the committee resumes its study on the integration of indigenous traditional knowledge and science in government policy development.

It's my pleasure to welcome Marjolaine Tshernish, the executive director of the Institut Tshakapesh. We also have Carole Lévesque, who is a full professor at the Indigenous Peoples Research and Knowledge Network, and we have Chief Jessica Lazare, from the Mohawk Council of Kahnawake. She is here. She just came in from Montreal, so she'll be joining in time for her speaking slot.

With that, we'll start our presentations of five minutes each, and we'll start with Carole Lévesque from the Indigenous Peoples Research and Knowledge Network.

Thank you for joining us, and we look forward to your testimony.

[Carole Lévesque, Full Professor, Indigenous Peoples Research and Knowledge Network]

Good morning. I'm happy to be here today.

As you just heard, my name is Carole Lévesque. I am an anthropologist and have mainly worked with Quebec's indigenous communities and governing bodies for more than 50 years. Throughout my long career, it has been my privilege to work together with indigenous leaders and knowledge-keepers and to explore numerous societal issues such as health, education, the status of women, the environment, urban realities and public policies targeting indigenous populations. Regardless of the concerns we have addressed, however, one common question has constantly emerged from the discussions we have had together, both then and now. And that question concerns the place and acknowledgement of indigenous knowledge systems within society, whether in universities, governments or the indigenous community world.

Nearly 25 years ago, a number of indigenous and non-indigenous colleagues and I established the Indigenous Peoples Research and Knowledge Network, commonly called the Dialog network. Within that framework, we have worked hard to build a new relationship between the university and indigenous worlds, striving together to build knowledge and take into consideration indigenous perspectives, aspirations, practices and competencies in research and the advancement of knowledge. We firmly believe that the key to reconciliation with indigenous peoples is to create ethical and shared engagement spaces, as we have done at the Dialog network.

Based on our joint contributions, we have identified three challenges inherent in the work of the Standing Committee on Science and Research.

The first challenge concerns the status of indigenous knowledge. References to the integration of indigenous knowledge, as here proposed, greatly restrict the scope of that knowledge, both scientific and otherwise. As is true of science, branches of indigenous knowledge must be understood as constituent parts of systems, that is to say, of bodies of organized, dynamic, organic and independent information. These systems consist of data, of course, but also of practices, devices, skills, intellectual operations and collective actions. Consequently, the objective of making room for knowledge in public policy development cannot be reduced to the mere integration of various types of information, as appropriate as they may be, in the body of scientific knowledge. It is more appropriate to build bridges of understanding between the sciences, which also operate as systems, on the one hand, and indigenous knowledge systems on the other. As you will agree, it has to be admitted here that science is far from unequivocal. For example, the explanatory methods of the natural sciences are very different from those of the social sciences and humanities.

The second challenge that I would like to discuss is the challenge of public policies per se. Are we just talking about environmental policies, or are we also discussing social policies? The question has to be asked because environmental science discourse dominates discussions of indigenous knowledge. There's a reason why people talk so freely about ecological knowledge. I—

[The Chair, Liberal, Lloyd Longfield]

We have a frozen screen here, so I'll put a pause on that and see if we can get her restored.

[Gerald Soroka, Conservative, Yellowhead, AB]

She could just be emphasizing a point, though.

[The Chair, Liberal, Lloyd Longfield]

That's right. She's letting us think about it.

While we're waiting, Marjolaine Tshernish, could you please turn on your microphone and we'll do a quick sound check on you? I understand we had some technical difficulties.

[Marjolaine Tshernish, Executive Director, Institut Tshakapesh]

Kwe kwe.

You can't hear me, can't you?

[Carole Lévesque]

So we're talking—

[The Chair, Liberal, Lloyd Longfield]

Okay. Thank you.

[Carole Lévesque]

Is that better?

[The Chair, Liberal, Lloyd Longfield]

Okay. I'm sorry. We paused you, but now we're back, Carole.

I'll start the time.

[Carole Lévesque]

All right. Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Lloyd Longfield]

Okay. Please go.

[Carole Lévesque]

People immediately assume that homelessness is the same for everyone. They don't think clearly enough about the various types of homelessness experienced by indigenous persons. Taking a closer look at it, you realize that the pathways of homeless indigenous persons are different enough to require specific solutions that reflect the common practices and the ways in which people are socialized in the indigenous world. Those practices and socialization methods are also an outgrowth of indigenous knowledge systems. In many respects, knowledge systems can eliminate the grey areas that exist in the sciences. Sometimes when we take those systems into account, we can have a very positive effect on the hierarchical and linear failings of the sciences, both social and natural.

The third and last challenge that I'd like to discuss here is the open and intersecting nature of the sciences. The issues that arise today aren't new. Thirty years ago, in the wake of the 1992 Convention on Biological Diversity, the federal government promoted a large number of initiatives designed to document and characterize indigenous ecological knowledge in a broad range of environmental fields. Apart from a [Technical difficulty—Editor] followed from it and that, in a vast majority of cases, remained confined to the scientific community, it is now obvious that very few lessons were learned from those projects. Too little information has circulated within indigenous communities and governing bodies, and too many studies have overlooked the social and cultural aspects of that knowledge.

So that's the situation—

[The Chair, Liberal, Lloyd Longfield]

We'll have to call time there. We're a little bit over. We got part of your conclusion, but maybe we can get the rest during comments and questions. Thank you for your testimony.

We will now turn to Chief Jessica Lazare from the Mohawk Council of the Kahnawake.

It's great to have you here.

[Chief Jessica Lazare, Mohawk Council of Kahnawake]

[Witness spoke in Mohawk]

[English]

I am Chief Jessica Lazare from the Mohawk Council of Kahnawake. I would like to thank the committee for the opportunity to participate in such an important and interesting study. I am not someone who studies or has studied science. However, today I will be speaking from my lived experiences and the teachings that have been passed on to me from elders, colleagues and knowledge-keepers. The key messages I would like to pass on to you today are rooted in these teachings.

I presume that the work you are doing in this study is to take a deeper look at two very different world views in an attempt to resolve conflicts between these two knowledge systems. Often, confliction can arise when focus is on the differences. It is important to also see the similarities to realize that there are different perspectives and approaches to reach common goals. These two knowledge systems can complement each other and aid each other in the full understanding of sciences.

Our knowledge system, the Kahnawake knowledge system, stems from our language. The language is intrinsic to our world view. It is based in verbs and it is based in actions and what we see, what we hear and what we observe. It holds teachings about science and demonstrates that my people have understood the science of the natural world, the relationships therein and the necessity of the balance with all living beings. To be honest, it will be very difficult to explain this in ways for you to fully appreciate this within five minutes and without the people who hold a very high proficiency in the Kanien’kehá:ka, or Mohawk, language.

Land is also an important factor when studying indigenous knowledge systems. When you are indigenous to the land, you possess an understanding of the natural system that is taught through generations of coexisting with the land. It is taught through a language that is older than your family generations who have been settled here. When settlers initially arrived here, the environment was not kind. The types of sustenance available here were not kind. This land and its elements were completely too foreign for the European biology. However, first nations taught settlers how to coexist with the land and taught them the medicines that helped them survive the ailments that were foreign to these newcomers.

There is also a need for discussions on how western academic education systems have sought to discredit indigenous knowledge systems simply because they were different. It is evident in the history of residential schools. This can be examined as an example of the systemic barriers that first nations have faced.

Moving forward, policy must acknowledge indigenous knowledge as equal to western knowledge. We can collaborate to better understand the ever-changing world around us and use our respective knowledge systems to achieve common goals. We may come from different lands and speak different languages, but we can find a common ground to communicate in. Through your study, I hope you will find a way to do that through policy development.

If there is one thing to remember about this speech, it is that in order to resolve conflicts, we must have an open mind to understand the different perspectives. I ask that you listen to understand, not to respond, as you ask me your questions.

Niiowén:nake.

[The Chair, Liberal, Lloyd Longfield]

Wonderful. Thank you very much.

For our last presenter, we'll go to Marjolaine Tshernish for five minutes, please.

[Marjolaine Tshernish]

Kwe kwe.

I would like to thank—

[The Clerk of the Committee, Mr. Philip den Ouden]

Pardon me, Ms. Tshernish.

My name is Philip den Ouden; I am the committee clerk, and I would like to verify something.

We hear you, but I don't think the sound is coming from your device.

There's a microphone at the bottom of the screen, and there's also a small arrow. It would be good if you could click on the arrow and select the microphone based on the name corresponding to your headset.

[Marjolaine Tshernish]

Can you hear me? Is it working at your end?

[The Clerk]

We hear you, but we think the sound is coming from the microphone on your computer, not the one in your headset.

Now we can't hear you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Lloyd Longfield]

I think we'll have to have technical support reach out to you to try to solve the technical issues so that we can continue with our meeting. If you could just be on the line with technical support, we'll go to our first round of questions of six minutes each. Once we have the technical issue resolved, maybe we can get your five-minute presentation in and work you into future questions.

For now, let's start with Gerald Soroka for six minutes, please.

[Gerald Soroka, Conservative, Yellowhead, AB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you to all the witnesses, especially Chief Lazare, for coming today.

I'll start with Chief Lazare.

I've heard from many indigenous members about the lack of consultation from the Liberal government on the firearms legislation and its impact on indigenous communities. Do you believe your voices are being heard now when it comes to indigenous traditional knowledge and priorities within the federal policy-making process?

[Chief Jessica Lazare]

I believe there are still efforts to be made for adequate consultation. This is not just an issue for the Liberal government, but for all governments throughout decades and decades of colonization and the Canadian government trying to suppress indigenous peoples, indigenous knowledge and indigenous systems, because it is very different from what the settlers came here with.

This isn't unique to just one government or another. It's something that is consistently a challenge for first nations and indigenous peoples in Canada.

[Gerald Soroka, Conservative, Yellowhead, AB]

How can a government improve its consultation process to ensure that indigenous perspectives are adequately represented in policy decisions, particularly in areas that affect traditional practices and rights?

[Chief Jessica Lazare]

Do you have a whole day to listen?

Honestly, to make it short and sweet, I would say, provide those spaces and provide the opportunity for indigenous peoples to provide their voice and their opinions and to be able to speak on their knowledge. We have a vast majority of talent and knowledge-keepers in our communities who hold different levels and different proficiencies of knowledge that they can contribute to policies and law-making to ensure that Canada is not overstepping on our rights and interests.